Mercurian and Venusian First Decan Leo. Third Decan Aquarius Rising. 6th House Sun, Mercury, and Saturn. 8th House Moon, Uranus and Node. 3rd Hou

Posted by Smidge
Be unavailable. Have a wife and kids.
Biches love that butter.


Lol clever
Posted by DwellingOnMove
Posted by seraph
"Life is suffering", etc., is often misunderstood.
... whatever we experience has no independent reality apart from our own (mental) condition... "interpretation".
... Meaning is assigned by our thinking.
... unexamined (or rather, incorrectly examined) relationship with what comes through our senses (including mind).
... through our own concepts – superimposing our thoughts, feelings, inadequacies, fears, expectations and projections on to person/place/thing, and then we invest in them emotionally on that basis. ... living life through a thick fog of very personal stuff.
... chief problem is not life nor experiencing, but rather ignorance (Avidyā) about what the real nature of all experiencing actually is. We have a "thinking" problem, not an "experience" problem.
Hi Seraph, thank you for commenting.
I think I understand what you are saying.
Such thought always remind me of how Hollywood's sience fiction tried a few times to analyze this for us, including the invocation of Mr. Spock. in Star Trek. They claim we need emotions cause without them we would lose also good emotions. It's like when a conservative (Cap?) thinker would say we need prejudice cause it protects us against deception and betray. Of course we suffer and lose a lot right because of prejudice, but it seems as our whole civilization put a lot of effort to daily produce new prejudice. What to say to mothers? "Let your children talk to strangers?"

I for myself should better prefer to lose good and bad together cause with transit Chiron in square to my natal Venus and Mars at the same time when transit Saturn is conjunct to them, I have enough of this "bleeding soul". Total detachment or self-dissipation as Jupiter in 12 might be the answer. (no drug abuse yet) But how would this permanent remembering of the EMPTINESS of the observed targets work for somebody in his good days? Have you tried to keep remembering it in all good and bad days? Are your days different from each other? Or would you say the nature is still the source of happiness? So that we won't lose the basic pleasures anyway. Do you know people who live the healthy SIMPLE life?
click to expand


Interesting post, Dwelling.

I'll answer later this evening, possibly earlier. I'll need to consider your post a little more carefully because I'd like to at least do some small justice to the concepts that'll be in my answer.
Posted by ItsMeRoman


If you say OP one more time...I'm going to slap you.

We live in the same city. 😐


O...


k.



Posted by FknNerd
Posted by seraph
Posted by FknNerd
Posted by seraph
Posted by FknNerd
Posted by sierra_
*gets raped multiple times

"butter happens"


*puts baby in the trash after rape

"why do people do horrible things?"


That exactly his reasoning. Then he proceeds to completely write off that she'd have PPD...


Negative.

People do horrible things. Agreed. That's not at issue, though.

The question is whether it's justified, especially in light of there being a choice. PPD exists as a legitimate reason, but it's not a choice, any more than a crime committed by reason of insanity is a choice. However, both insanity and PPD must be established, and given that reality, we also know that neither of them happen in every instance. It's a defence, not an inevitability.

That's the key difference, and it's actually made clear in the first post of this thread.

Just stop trying to justify yourself. Ever think maybe this case was mishandled and she wasn't psych evaluated? Its a clear case of PPD. And the question is whether she deserved a prison sentence. Learn how to read.


Posted by FknNerd

Just stop trying to justify yourself. Ever think maybe this case was mishandled and she wasn't psych evaluated? Its a clear case of PPD. And the question is whether she deserved a prison sentence. Learn how to read.


I have no issue with PPD, but it has nothing to do with what's in the OP. We're talking about choices, not the absence of choice. Do you understand?

"Ever think maybe this case was mishandled and she wasn't psych evaluated?"

Again, the issue under discussion has nothing to do with PPD. What's at issue is choice, not the medically-existing absence of choice.

MASSIVE difference. Galaxies of difference.

"And the question is whether she deserved a prison sentence."

It's at best, a child abandonment or equivalent, and at worst, it's something along the lines of a manslaughter or equivalent if the child ends up dead. Doesn't exactly rise to murder.

It's not justifiable (and moral justifiability is the question at hand – it's clearly in the OP), but there are defences for it, which, of course, have nothing to do with whether it's justified.

CC was arguing for its justifiability. That's the issue.


Do you have aspergers? Nothing in her first post should lead someone to believe she was in a healthy state of mind.


No, I'm literate.

From the OP's post:

"She did the right thing."

(because, incidentally, baby's got a rapist dad or because he/she's got rapey DNA and mama can't live with that idea... or whatever other nonsense; read the OP for this stuff – yes it's *actually* what's being implied.)

That's the issue here.

It's not actually the "right thing."

Posted by FknNerd

How is PPD not an issue when almost every woman has it after the birth of her first child?


It isn't relevant to what is in the OP.

Posted by FknNerd

Its not uncommon. Even a lot of other species of mammals kill their first litter. PPD is significantly worse if you were abused by the person who impregnated you.


Great info. I'm not disputing it.

But again, it's irrelevant to the assertions made in the OP.

Posted by FknNerd

You're a piece of butter if you don't sympathize with that.


My sympathies aren't relevant to the assertions made in the OP.

Posted by FknNerd

Since she was a refugee, she probably didn't have access to treatment, abortion, and obviously rights since most female citizens of the US don't go to prison for this. CCs question is whether this woman received a punishment she deserved which is how I read it.


Yes, that was brought up.

Whether she deserved it depends on factors that are not relevant to the assertions about the facts made in the OP.

It could very well be that there are mitigating factors in her favour. But again, not relevant to the assertions about the facts made in the OP.

I responded to the OP specifically, not to adjunct, ancillary issues that are being brought up, the specifics of which, by the way, I have no problem with.

Posted by FknNerd

You're treating the situation as if you, in your (semi) right mind would be justified by throwing a baby in a dumpster. Obviously not,


Yes. OBVIOUSLY not. This is what the OP did not seem to understand and which I replied to. I had no interest in any other issues. This is clear from my first reply on down.

Posted by FknNerd

but a person who is raped and lacks any form of a support system to deal with depression abandons a baby then I'm empathetic towards it
click to expand


Sure. I'd be empathetic as well (which also isn't relevant, but I'll indulge you) but that doesn't mean what she did was actually justified (which is what I've been talking about this entire time), or that she shouldn't be held accountable, especially if there is no legitimate medical condition of diminished responsibility that can be established.

Empathy does not necessarily equal a free pass because someone has a hard time coping. It may be for you in this particular case, but in this particular case I'm not about pouring oil over an already slippery slope without requiring a little personal responsibility in the process, before we decide it's justifiable to pour.

That's about it.
Posted by FknNerd
Posted by seraph
Posted by FknNerd
Posted by sierra_
*gets raped multiple times

"butter happens"


*puts baby in the trash after rape

"why do people do horrible things?"


That exactly his reasoning. Then he proceeds to completely write off that she'd have PPD...


Negative.

People do horrible things. Agreed. That's not at issue, though.

The question is whether it's justified, especially in light of there being a choice. PPD exists as a legitimate reason, but it's not a choice, any more than a crime committed by reason of insanity is a choice. However, both insanity and PPD must be established, and given that reality, we also know that neither of them happen in every instance. It's a defence, not an inevitability.

That's the key difference, and it's actually made clear in the first post of this thread.

Just stop trying to justify yourself. Ever think maybe this case was mishandled and she wasn't psych evaluated? Its a clear case of PPD. And the question is whether she deserved a prison sentence. Learn how to read.


Posted by FknNerd

Just stop trying to justify yourself. Ever think maybe this case was mishandled and she wasn't psych evaluated? Its a clear case of PPD. And the question is whether she deserved a prison sentence. Learn how to read.
click to expand


I have no issue with PPD, but it has nothing to do with what's in the OP. We're talking about choices, not the absence of choice. Do you understand?

"Ever think maybe this case was mishandled and she wasn't psych evaluated?"

Again, the issue under discussion has nothing to do with PPD. What's at issue is choice, not the medically-existing absence of choice.

MASSIVE difference. Galaxies of difference.

"And the question is whether she deserved a prison sentence."

It's at best, a child abandonment or equivalent, and at worst, it's something along the lines of a manslaughter or equivalent if the child ends up dead. Doesn't exactly rise to murder.

It's not justifiable (and moral justifiability is the question at hand – it's clearly in the OP), but there are defences for it, which, of course, have nothing to do with whether it's justified.

CC was arguing for its justifiability. That's the issue.
Posted by FknNerd
Posted by sierra_
*gets raped multiple times

"butter happens"


*puts baby in the trash after rape

"why do people do horrible things?"


That exactly his reasoning. Then he proceeds to completely write off that she'd have PPD...
click to expand


Negative.

People do horrible things. Agreed. That's not at issue, though.

The question is whether it's justified, especially in light of there being a choice. PPD exists as a legitimate reason, but it's not a choice, any more than a crime committed by reason of insanity is a choice. However, both insanity and PPD must be established, and given that reality, we also know that neither of them happen in every instance. It's a defence, not an inevitability.

That's the key difference, and it's actually made clear in the first post of this thread.
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by sierra_
Posted by seraph
Posted by Bonezmalone
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.


I’m not saying hey go toss your baby in the trash but I don’t want a child if it was conceived from rape period. I would abort immediately & try to heal. No way I’m carrying a rape baby full term. It’s not the child’s fault but I’m not obligated to sacrifice my body in order to bring him/her into this world either.


I understand, and we're on the same page, mostly.

If you've (using the general "you" here) delivered a baby, then you've got baby in your hands. The issue isn't whether the baby is wanted; unwanted babies can be dropped off in certain places without fear of being charged with a crime. But notwithstanding even that, you've still got a little baby in your hands. Trash bags aren't exactly the responsible, human choice for a baby.

As for the noise about DNA, it's got nothing to do with anything. You've got a child and you need to act responsibly. Hate the guy's DNA? So what. Put away the trauma for five minutes and do what's right for the kid. You don't suddenly hand back your Adult Card because something terrible happened to you.

It's the difference between making choices based on emotion vs. making choices based on values, no matter how you happen to feel.


i wish the world's perfect like this too

that people do what they're supposed to do

but it isn't and they don't



The question isn't whether it happens, but whether it's justified. I see and accept the former, but the latter isn't a major dilemma.


if women were as cruel as men would we still be taken advantage of

hmmmmmmmmm


click to expand


As far as the kid in the trash is concerned, it's totally irrelevant.

The problem, if you're looking for one, is what to do about rape in the first place – that's understood, not whether to physically toss a kid into a bin because you've gone through something bad.

And really, you can drop off children in safe places without taking any punitive hit. So really, one's hard pressed to find a justifiable excuse.

Maybe you hate the kid's existence because it's born from rape and you've got this hangup about bringing bad mojo into the gene pool or whatever nonsense. Your user tag mentions "structural racism". Better check your opinions on this because straying into eugenics-by-any-other-name doesn't compute too well with whatever you've decided to advertise for the board to read.
Posted by FknNerd
Posted by seraph
Posted by Bonezmalone
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.


I’m not saying hey go toss your baby in the trash but I don’t want a child if it was conceived from rape period. I would abort immediately & try to heal. No way I’m carrying a rape baby full term. It’s not the child’s fault but I’m not obligated to sacrifice my body in order to bring him/her into this world either.


I understand, and we're on the same page, mostly.

If you've (using the general "you" here) delivered a baby, then you've got baby in your hands. The issue isn't whether the baby is wanted; unwanted babies can be dropped off in certain places without fear of being charged with a crime. But notwithstanding even that, you've still got a little baby in your hands. Trash bags aren't exactly the responsible, human choice for a baby.

As for the noise about DNA, it's got nothing to do with anything. You've got a child and you need to act responsibly. Hate the guy's DNA? So what. Put away the trauma for five minutes and do what's right for the kid. You don't suddenly hand back your Adult Card because something terrible happened to you.

It's the difference between making choices based on emotion vs. making choices based on values, no matter how you happen to feel.


You're an idiot. You should really stop chiming in. As if a person thinks rationally after giving birth rape or no rape. Ever hear of PPD?
click to expand


That's different. That's not a choice, it's a condition. PPD isn't under discussion. What's more, if PPD was a given in every situation then the entire question would be moot.
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by Bonezmalone
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.


I’m not saying hey go toss your baby in the trash but I don’t want a child if it was conceived from rape period. I would abort immediately & try to heal. No way I’m carrying a rape baby full term. It’s not the child’s fault but I’m not obligated to sacrifice my body in order to bring him/her into this world either.


I understand, and we're on the same page, mostly.

If you've (using the general "you" here) delivered a baby, then you've got baby in your hands. The issue isn't whether the baby is wanted; unwanted babies can be dropped off in certain places without fear of being charged with a crime. But notwithstanding even that, you've still got a little baby in your hands. Trash bags aren't exactly the responsible, human choice for a baby.

As for the noise about DNA, it's got nothing to do with anything. You've got a child and you need to act responsibly. Hate the guys DNA? So what. Put away the trauma for five minutes and do what's right for the kid. You don't suddenly hand back your Adult Card because something terrible happened to you.

It's the difference between making choices based on emotion vs. making choices based on values, no matter how you happen to feel.


Its interesting how men want to prescribe what a woman should do when they've never had to make that decision



Pretty sure that not leaving a kid in a trash bag to rot and die isn't something that requires a lot of debate. Whether someone is Pro Choice or Pro Life, it's virtually insane to toss an actual kid into a bin. It's been done in the past and might be a phenomenon, but that doesn't make it right.

Save the "I do what I want" posturing for other things. There's certainly a time and a place if a woman wants to assert their free will. This isn't one of them, and the issue is gender-neutral in the first place.


Actually, it's not gender neutral, it's what society dictates whats normal for abused women to have to process and go through, even though this is a very abnormal situation


click to expand


Again, you want to choose? No problem. You can choose. Go ahead and choose your entitled head off. Do it as much as you want. You can choose to make decisions based on emotion, or decisions based on values. Society has sweet f all to do with it. It's a question of personal responsibility. If you have none, passing the buck becomes a reality. And *there* is your actual social problem.
Posted by sierra_
Posted by seraph
Posted by Bonezmalone
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.


I’m not saying hey go toss your baby in the trash but I don’t want a child if it was conceived from rape period. I would abort immediately & try to heal. No way I’m carrying a rape baby full term. It’s not the child’s fault but I’m not obligated to sacrifice my body in order to bring him/her into this world either.


I understand, and we're on the same page, mostly.

If you've (using the general "you" here) delivered a baby, then you've got baby in your hands. The issue isn't whether the baby is wanted; unwanted babies can be dropped off in certain places without fear of being charged with a crime. But notwithstanding even that, you've still got a little baby in your hands. Trash bags aren't exactly the responsible, human choice for a baby.

As for the noise about DNA, it's got nothing to do with anything. You've got a child and you need to act responsibly. Hate the guy's DNA? So what. Put away the trauma for five minutes and do what's right for the kid. You don't suddenly hand back your Adult Card because something terrible happened to you.

It's the difference between making choices based on emotion vs. making choices based on values, no matter how you happen to feel.


i wish the world's perfect like this too

that people do what they're supposed to do

but it isn't and they don't

click to expand



The question isn't whether it happens, but whether it's justified. I see and accept the former, but the latter isn't a major dilemma.
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by Bonezmalone
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.


I’m not saying hey go toss your baby in the trash but I don’t want a child if it was conceived from rape period. I would abort immediately & try to heal. No way I’m carrying a rape baby full term. It’s not the child’s fault but I’m not obligated to sacrifice my body in order to bring him/her into this world either.


I understand, and we're on the same page, mostly.

If you've (using the general "you" here) delivered a baby, then you've got baby in your hands. The issue isn't whether the baby is wanted; unwanted babies can be dropped off in certain places without fear of being charged with a crime. But notwithstanding even that, you've still got a little baby in your hands. Trash bags aren't exactly the responsible, human choice for a baby.

As for the noise about DNA, it's got nothing to do with anything. You've got a child and you need to act responsibly. Hate the guys DNA? So what. Put away the trauma for five minutes and do what's right for the kid. You don't suddenly hand back your Adult Card because something terrible happened to you.

It's the difference between making choices based on emotion vs. making choices based on values, no matter how you happen to feel.


Its interesting how men want to prescribe what a woman should do when they've never had to make that decision

click to expand


Pretty sure that not leaving a kid in a trash bag to rot and die isn't something that requires a lot of debate. Whether someone is Pro Choice or Pro Life, it's virtually insane to toss an actual kid into a bin. It's been done in the past and might be a phenomenon, but that doesn't make it right.

Save the "I do what I want" posturing for other things. There's certainly a time and a place if a woman wants to assert their free will. This isn't one of them, and the issue is gender-neutral in the first place.
Posted by Bonezmalone
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.


I’m not saying hey go toss your baby in the trash but I don’t want a child if it was conceived from rape period. I would abort immediately & try to heal. No way I’m carrying a rape baby full term. It’s not the child’s fault but I’m not obligated to sacrifice my body in order to bring him/her into this world either.
click to expand


I understand, and we're on the same page, mostly.

If you've (using the general "you" here) delivered a baby, then you've got baby in your hands. The issue isn't whether the baby is wanted; unwanted babies can be dropped off in certain places without fear of being charged with a crime. But notwithstanding even that, you've still got a little baby in your hands. Trash bags aren't exactly the responsible, human choice for a baby.

As for the noise about DNA, it's got nothing to do with anything. You've got a child and you need to act responsibly. Hate the guy's DNA? So what. Put away the trauma for five minutes and do what's right for the kid. You don't suddenly hand back your Adult Card because something terrible happened to you.

It's the difference between making choices based on emotion vs. making choices based on values, no matter how you happen to feel.
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
Posted by seraph
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag


Bit of a sticking point, this.


well if wasn't able to abort it, why should the dna of her rapist exist?
click to expand


"DNA of her rapist" has no actual meaning. Not the kid's fault.
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee

i think she did the right thing.



Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
has a child and leaves it in a trash bag
click to expand


Bit of a sticking point, this.
There’s a great deal to be said for observing other people’s mistakes.
Happy Birthday, @ellesbelles !



Here's to another year...












Hope you enjoyed your special day.

Posted by xyinsaturn
Posted by seraph
Posted by xyinsaturn
Posted by seraph
Posted by Supes
Posted by Therealjane10
A little bit of self reflection is necessary otherwise we end repeating the same mistakes over and over again.


This is true but I’m referring to the ones who constantly live in the past. Always bringing it up


Because they like it.

It’s like a junk food habit.


"choose a side"
*Simbbaa*




You said it a few years ago and it stuck.

click to expand


Cheers, xy, I’m glad at least one of us remembers.




Posted by xyinsaturn
Posted by seraph
Posted by Supes
Posted by Therealjane10
A little bit of self reflection is necessary otherwise we end repeating the same mistakes over and over again.


This is true but I’m referring to the ones who constantly live in the past. Always bringing it up


Because they like it.

It’s like a junk food habit.


"choose a side"
*Simbbaa*
click to expand


Posted by Supes
Posted by Therealjane10
A little bit of self reflection is necessary otherwise we end repeating the same mistakes over and over again.


This is true but I’m referring to the ones who constantly live in the past. Always bringing it up
click to expand


Because they like it.

It’s like a junk food habit.
Posted by hollyhock
Posted by seraph
Posted by hollyhock
How do you reconcile making decisions that are best for you when it is going ultimately disappoint someone else?

I hate disappointing people so I tend to not do things that are in my best interest. And therefore life walks all over me. But when I do try to do what is best for me, I have such guilt and I feel horrible.


You just bite the bullet and deal with it. And the more you do it the more you get accustomed to it.

It’s, as you said, part of “being an adult.”


I am just not good at it though. I hate disappointing people I work with especially.
click to expand


Consider that the assumption that someone else will be "disappointed" exists first in your mind. It's merely an assumption, undergirded by what you're only guessing to be the operation of someone's else's mind. Even if they are disappointed – either visibly or they express that to you somehow – it's still a question of degree. Don't underestimate the other person's ability to get over it. And at worst, even if they are *really* disappointed, yet your reasons are firm and well-founded, then acknowledge either to them or just to yourself that you did what had to be done and (to yourself unless pressed) that your responsibilities for the other person's feelings have their reasonable limits. After a certain point the opinions of others and whatever issues they have are not your problem.

Get used to the idea – that is, put in the effort to train yourself to understand and accept that your well-considered reasons – the ones that will help you sleep at night come what may – supersede all external considerations. This in turn minimizes your impact (relatively) on others and maximizes your ability to do what needs to be done.