Fate vs Freewill

Why! Why! Why! Why do these things happen? Who's really in control here? Did you ever notice how you can try and try, but somethings just always go in unexpected directions? So I pose a question to everyone:

Who really leads your life? Fate, or Free will?

I believe that fate guides me into situations where I have the choice of free will. I wonder if it's possible that we can create our fate, if that makes sense...

Yeah I know what you mean, it's sort of like the rules of karma. You have choices to make, and things happen because of them, even if you didn't recognize all the affects which a certain decision would have at the time that you made it.

moragn.... "fate vs. free will" sounds familiar...

Anyway, I don't truly believe in fate at all (but m mind is open to it) nor do we all have complete free will. We know the consequences of our actions and that allows us to decide or choose. When we are unsure, we pick what seems to be the best choice, flip a coin, or ,like me, count eani-meani-meini-moe. Whatever happens happens- it's all chance.

wow, I always thought it was spelled eeny meeny miny moe

O.k but it was your choice to flip the coin or not Gwen, and did it just land on heads or was it fate that you were ment to take the path of heads...—

Free Will baby...it's the only way that is fair, it's the only way I'd rather be...it's the only way we can be an individual.

Good one durrie... I choose to flip the coin and I land on heads (thoug I prefer tails)... it's chance, not fate, I say, that makes it land on heads. You know, the number of swivels it takes in the air, how I threw it, at what force, wind velocity, distance to the ground, whether I catch it or miss,. It's all chance to me... unless I wanted to calculate those things and perform an experiment which I won't. It could be fate and there is no way to prove it otherwise. It all leads down to faith. Odd coming from me.

Lol, and then if you're like me, and the coin lands on heads, you choose the tails path anyway, cause that's what you really wanted all along and it only took almost losing it to realize it.

LoL... you know that's not what I meant!

Aaah...but then it was fate that made the coin land on heads to force you to take the path of tails then wasn't it Morgan...LOL...—

What is interesting to me is that I reckon we can be part of someone elses fate but that occurance may have nothing to do with us other than what we had to offer the other person...ie we were part of their fate...that's all.

Fate is not everything in every moment of our lives, that is free will and that is what makes us human...ie how we excercise that free will, it makes us individuals and is why some like blue more than red and some don't like red at all...etc.

To my mind I believe fate to be occurances of importance according to and in line with our life goal set by ourselves before takeing birth in this life...the kinda things that redirect our lives when we have gone a bit off track and lost site od that goal because of our right to excercise our free will as human beings.

Our free will leads us down many paths in life...some good and some bad but these paths are set by our innate desire as humans to gratify our senses, our ego and to attain wealth in life wether it be physical or emotional gain.

That is life and free will, but fate has more of a spiritual spin on it to my mind. Fate is an occurance that drastically changes your life and it's direction and generally because you needed an injection of some kind into your life at that time.
As such I believe these "fateful" occurances to be arranged by higher beings like our Spirit Giudes and also Angels.

These are my thoughts and beliefs...and I'm glad to have shared with you...it amazes me how much I feel I progress in life when spewing out my mind to total strangers and borrowing a bit from them in return from their replies should I see wisdom in the words we share.

Thanks guys...love and light to you all and always.
Durrie.

Durrie... I agree with your last paragraph totally... I love this message board because I find it so interesting what other people believe when its not the same as my beliefs... it's truly a learning experience.

I also agree with you Durrie, sometimes I don't understand what I think until I explain it to someone else... We're all caught up together in this giant web of cause and effect, and even if it's not "fate", it's certainly something special.

As life always is, something special.

Yeah, cool...

yeah...very.

Everyone should read The Other Side and Back by Sylvia Browne. Actually, everyone should read all of her books. Reading The Other Side and Back changed my life, and I never thought I would be one of those silly people who says things about books changing their lives. But look, I'm one of those people. When I read that book, which I believe I was FATED to read (recieved it as a gift), it made me feel so much better about life and death and pretty much everything in between. I never looked at anything quite the same way again.

Not to bring this thread off topic or anything 🙂

Well you guys here is my opinion; it's kinda long but please read the whole thing through:

Chance is simply a way of saying that there are an infinite amount of outcomes that can result from your actions. Fate is saying that chance is illusion, and whatever you attribute to chance is actually a crazy turn on the road of fate.

I would have to say that I believe in FATE. This is because it is the one that I believe offers a satisfying explanation to everything that is also kind of scientifically approved. String theory is becoming popular, and it predicts 11-dimensions and parallel universes. Essentially, each universe would be different from the other (there are an infinite number of parallel universes, as the concept of distance doesn't hold in the 11th dimension, ask me for more details if you need). This can be interpreted as each universe having its own fate. So essentially there are an infinite number of fates, just that each universe is determined to have its own fate.

So essentially by supporting in faith you'll be supporting the idea of an infinite number of outcomes. Choices? No. Let me explain my views a bit further:

Everything has a purpose. Essentially, if there is no purpose, then there is no consequent action or result. You're reading this for a reason - you chose to. Why you chose to doesn't matter, but the point is that there is a reason. Or maybe you're being forced to read this. Something like that.

With supporting chance and free will, you essentially lose your purpose, which means that you really have no reason to exist. But we know this has to be false, as we cannot stand to live with this. What free will says is that you don't exist at all because you can do whatever you want. Free will can lead to mass chaos in the universe (not entropy). WHAT FATE PROVIDES IS A WAY FOR EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE TO WORK FOR A PURPOSE.

Everyone thinks that fate means that there's a moderator. Well, there has to be a moderator. And, in fact, it isn't God - not how He is viewed today. This moderator of fate idea, who the moderator of fate is, is an idea that won't fit on this page (that I came up with myself), but if you guys want, I can post it. Basically I know some people here are probably thinking, "If there's a God, why does He let us suffer?" And to this I believe have a plausible answer. But it's too long (I don't know what the limit is on this post, this is my first post).

(BTW, im 14 yrs old, go easy on me plz with ur respon

It's lunchtime. You "decide" you want a fast food lunch. You are near a Wendy's, a McDonald's, a Taco Bell, and a Burger king. Again, you "decide" that a Burger King Whopper sounds good today. You go to the drive through and place your order, everything is A.O.K. UNTIL you get up to the window to pay. When you get there, they tell you they can't fill your order because the main machine to make burgers just broke down while you were in line. Chances are, had you chosen any of the other 3, there would be no problem, but now you still need lunch, and to stop somewhere else will make you late for work. You decide you are too hungry NOT to eat so you speed down the highway to get to Taco Bell.
Now, you get pulled over for speeding, and are DEFINITELY going to be late for work. Well, the cop ends up being the man/woman of your dreams and you end up exchanging phone numbers. (HEY this is MY story k?)..You go back to work without eating, with a fat speeding ticket, a date for saturday night, and a pissed off boss. How much was choice, and how much was fate? My point is, that it's not either/or, but that they exist together, hand in hand. Free will is a choice. There are preconceived consequences or outcomes of choice. Fate has no reason or ryhme. It simply IS. It simply happens. Just as you can't control the weather.http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http% 253A% 252F% 252Fwww.smileycentral.com% 252F% 253Fpartner% 253DZSzeb008% 255FZNxmk572YYUS% 2526i% 253D28% 252F28% 255F2% 255F4v% 2526feat% 253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">

I kind of like to think free will and fate work together. Although i believe our lives have been scripted and written by us and our Spirit/God before we are born; most likely karma from the past also plays a role. The end of *a* road is our fate, unique unto itself. How we get there, is our free will...*it's like a maze, we go through different paths, learning, growing, making choices; vicariously effecting others for good or bad along the way.

>> Everyone should read The Other Side and Back by Sylvia Browne. Actually, everyone should read all of her books.

I wouldn't inflict that sort of punishment on my worst enemy. Sylvia Browne is far from any resembling a decent spiritual leader.



As for the debate over Fate and Free Will, Free Will has always struck me as a sort of vague term. A description that seems to best fit what someone would want Free Will to be would be not caused by a previous event (not following cause and effect since it would be determined rather than "free" if it followed the flow of cause and effect) and yet non-random, which means it isn't just jibberish or out of the blue but is controlled and able to be guided.

Basically, Free Will would mean actions which are not the direct result of our environment and our own experiences, but yet also not random, which means that they don't just appear out of a whim but are under our control.

This is just logically vapid. It doesn't hold up. Cause and effect is complex, but the world we observe does follow deterministic patterns, Free Will is just magical thinking to help give yourself the feeling of being in control.

But, Fate doesn't exist either, not in the way people believe. Fate implies that there is something else which dictates how you are going to act and do. But, you are the one who follows your own nature, there's no outside force that is restricting you, if you do something, that's because that's who you are.

Who leads your life, well, there are many factors which dictate how you will act. There is your own biology and their is your environment. They both play a role in the actions that a person will take in their life. Your environment affects who you are, and who you are affects your environment.

It really isn't as simple as fate or free will. Infact even I don't know yet, but I know that it isn't as simple as something being fated to happen, or nothing being affected by cause and effect. It's a circular system where who you are and the world around you both are affected and changed constantly by each other.

I posted above that "There is no outside force that is restricting you" but then I went on to talk about just such an outside force. Obviously I made an error there in how I spoke.

What I should have said was that it's more of a feedback, rather than something just deciding how you will react. It isn't just one way, just like the environment, as a force, can alter your choices - thus possibly changing your choices. So does it work the other way, you as a force can also create feedback with the environment and change the environment, thus changing it's affect on you.

">> Everyone should read The Other Side and Back by Sylvia Browne. Actually, everyone should read all of her books."

i sometimes see Syliva Browne on Montel Williams; have always been impressed; she is a wonderful psychic, and their definately is a spirtual guidance/aura there. i'll most likely start reading some of her books; the one about Prophecy and Prediction looks especially interesting. {she tells us we all have a spirit guide to our right, and about 5 or 6 angels around us at all times; some may be arch-angels. Although the truly dark souls have no angelic protection; aka saddam hussein.}

> Mystic Fish

Explain how Sylvia Browne's "spiritual guidance" was so wrong on these four cases.
Explain the Shawn Hornbeck reading?
Explain the Holly Krewson reading?
Explain the Lynda McClelland reading?
Explain the Ryan Katcher reading?
Explain the Opal Jo Jennings reading?
Explain the Novus Spiritus diamond fraud, since she's a supposed spiritual leader.

Sylvia Browne told Shawn Hornbeck's parents that he was DEAD and had been murdered. He wasn't. He was abducted but alive. Because of her crap, many hours were wasted following up on her crap leads.

Read up on the people you endorse as spiritual leaders, please. If you can still call her a decent spiritual leader after looking into these things, fine.

I apologize for coming off like this on all of you.

I just wanted to get these things out early. Sylvia Browne does not have any spiritual powers, infact she's not even worthy of being called a spiritual leader or having any form of spiritual guidance. She has told people incredibly painful and terrible things, such as Shawn Hornbeck's parents who came to her for help and she flat out lied to them and made things even worse with her awful predictions.

Her feel good books may make you feel good with her talks about pets going to pet heaven and angels and stuff may give you a warm fuzzy feeling and hope for something more, but that doesn't undo the damaging actions she did to those people and continues to do.

The readings I listed, she got nearly. every. single. fact. WRONG. These are people looking for help and guidance, and she horrifies them with these incredible lies. Are these the actions of ANYONE with even an ounce of love and understanding and guidance in them?

That's okay Wings, i appreciate the sincerety of your words. To be honest, i am not familiar with any of those readings, or with her more intense investigations; the more criminal side of her work, or i can't recall them. i know of her more with the hauntings or loved one's who have passed on, wanting to relay messages. Or her talk of angels, spirit guides, or maybe someone in ill health, etc.

No, i agree; even though her heart may have had the best of intentions; when it comes to psychic murder investigations, there is no room for error, as there are people's lives at stake. Some psychics have come through for the police to a certain extent, and some may be better than others. i would have thought her track record would be on the same accurate level as her other work. i do feel sorry for those families that have been misguided, by her false information. i hope everything turned out alright for them, in the end. Time 'definately' is the most important aspect of any crime.

Just a few comments.

There is an even better explanation for her "heart being in the right place in regards to psychic murder investigations." It's called publicity.

No psychic has ever come through for the police. Never. To claim that a psychic helped in an investigation, all they have to do is come to the courthouse and make a bunch of wild claims and lead people on a wild goose chase. That's it. If you'll look into any psychic who claims they solved any murder case, you will find that it's not the case at all. No psychic has ever given credible help or evidence in any investigation, ever.

There's alot of charlatan psychics out there, who do things only for profit. That is true. I have no respect for such. They are a waste of time and resources. On the other hand; I couldn't be so bold as to say, NO psychic has ever 'helped' in a crime. i watched a documentary awhile ago, where a veteran detective was also a psychic, and he was an extremely valuable member of his team. So I believe there are exceptions, to the rule. *a bigger question may be; generally, how would a 'true psychic'..'prove' themselves, beyond a shadow of a doubt? Sometimes science cannot explain everything. Sometimes, we need to have a little carefully placed faith.

I will look into the claim you just presented. Do you know the name of the detective that you claim actually provided credible predictions, that is what I mean by help in terms of psychic powers.

Secondly, Science is simply a method for judging the world, that's it. Science is always tentative, nothing is ever proven in Science. It simply looks for what has evidence to back it up.

Also, provide a situation where "carefully placed faith" is necessary.

"Do you know the name of the detective that you claim actually provided credible predictions, that is what I mean by help in terms of psychic powers."

No, sorry Wings...*that was maybe a year or so ago, maybe longer. I never wrote his name down or anything, (wish i had) I just watched it. It was an older veteran cop/detective. I can remember him driving his car, explaining to the viewer; how he gets visions, hunches, etc. etc. I can't remember if the person was still alive or passed, that he was investigating. I think it was a girl who went missing. But in the end, I believe his visions did help out greatly. Just another tool, among many to help him perform a job, that he took very seriously. He never promised anything to anyone, either. It wasn't about fame or glory. If a hunch or vision happened, it happened. If it didn't, it didn't. He seemed to be well-like and respected by his peers. Quietly passionate and independant. It was about seeking justice and the truth for another human being, who couldn't speak for themselves.

"Also, provide a situation where "carefully placed faith" is necessary."

Let's say a person is on their death-bed, and the doctor says, "I know it is against your 'religion' for receiving blood from another, however if you don't receive a blood-transfusion soon, you will die." Now this person is not trusting to medical science. Their religion, no matter how respected, and their rights are their beliefs, trumps 'common sense.' Carefully placed faith is believing in the doctor's who want to help you survive, and nothing else. I think science and religion (prayer) can go hand in hand. However one may balance out the other in certain situations; as is here. *Carefully placed faith in the hands of trusted doctors, who can 'also' provide miracles...

"Science is always tentative, nothing is ever proven in Science. It simply looks for what has evidence to back it up."

wow, interesting statement; I still need time to wrap my mind completely around that one; you may have a good point there. Have to see..! 😉

I had a long post written, but I don't want to keep on derailing this topic so I decided to shorten this one. If you'd like to continue this deeper, we can continue in PM or create a new topic on this if you would like.

In regards to the detective, I'll see if I can find any. It's kind of hard though since I have no verifiable evidence to look into.

In regards to your example, carefully is the keyword which takes that example away from the realm of acceptance by faith into the realm of acceptance by evidence and logic. The patient can actually find evidence to back up the doctor's opinion.

As for the comment on what Science is. Please do, I think you'll find it quite interesting.

Addendment to the previous post. I was wrong to discount the statement "Carefully placed faith" since that pretty much is what logic is. So I admit that the statement is actually simply what logic itself is. Of course, I'm using the definition which includes "faith with reason" as faith in this sense. If we're talking about "faith without reason" then we don't have carefully placed faith.

"I had a long post written, but I don't want to keep on derailing this topic so I decided to shorten this one. If you'd like to continue this deeper, we can continue in PM or create a new topic on this if you would like."

yes, Wings...if I find some more information on my own about this or have more feedback to give, I will certainly let you know. Thankyou.

"Addendment to the previous post. I was wrong to discount the statement "Carefully placed faith" since that pretty much is what logic is. So I admit that the statement is actually simply what logic itself is. Of course, I'm using the definition which includes "faith with reason" as faith in this sense. If we're talking about "faith without reason" then we don't have carefully placed faith."

i agree; "faith without reason", is misguided faith. Can we even call it faith, or is faith in the eye of the beholder; no matter its reasoning?

"As for the comment on what Science is. Please do, I think you'll find it quite interesting."

Maybe we can open another topic here, at some later date; when I do a little futher exploring on my own. Again, very interesting concept.

For now; another related topic we can easily segway into if you'd like; speaking of faith; what are your thoughts, beliefs or comments on the following, Wings?

Quoting:

"Faith is believing what you want to believe, yet cannot prove."

"Sadly, many people, including some Christians, live with this definition of faith. For some it feels liberating. It means being able to believe in anything you want to. No explanation is required; indeed, no explanation can be given--it is just a matter of faith. For others, such a definition is sickening. Embracing faith means you stop thinking. As faith increases, reason and meaning eventually disappear. No explanations can be given, and none can be expected. Thus, living in faith is living in the dark.

For both groups, the problem is the same. By starting with the wrong definition of faith, they have asked the wrong question, are dealing with the wrong problem, and so have ended up with the wrong answer. Faith is not wishful thinking. It is not about believing in things that do not exist. It neither makes all things believable, nor meaning impossible."

~continued;

"So what is the right definition of faith? "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," writes the author of Hebrews. A few verses later faith is similarly defined as knowing that God exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

source: http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=1260

Regarding the quotes.

>> Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,"

Faith is supposedly the evidence for something I haven't seen and the "substance" of something hoped for? That makes no sense.

Okay, I have faith that the Flying Spagetti Monster is real, because I have faith in it, it exists. My faith presents it's existance because it is substance for it.

Do you see how that line of logic makes no possible sense? Just because we have faith in something, doesn't make it true and it definately isn't evidence of anything more than a belief. And beliefs do not have to be true or real.

"Do you see how that line of logic makes no possible sense? Just because we have faith in something, doesn't make it true and it definately isn't evidence of anything more than a belief. And beliefs do not have to be true or real."

I know Wings, so very true..for the (most) part, i do agree, it does make sense. Alot of faith is based on emotional need. But if you had faith in just one thing, unseen; has no base of evidence, what would it be?

For me, this would be the existence of an afterlife. Not up or down, but parellel to this one. Because I truly believe we are much more than biology. Humans have a reason, and someday, hopefully we will know that reason.

Could it also be said, that just because we can't see, taste, touch, or hear something; it doesn't exist either? Could the universe actually have two basis of reality?

>> What would I have faith in?
I try not to deal in thinking about things with which I have no evidence towards, it keeps me from focusing on the things that really do need my attention right now that I can see and deal with.

>> Existance of Afterlife
Here's the problem here. There are so many questions you could ask here without any good answer. Where's the foundation, what evidence backs up this belief?

What reason and evidence do you have to believe there is an Afterlife?
That it is parallel to this life?
That we are more than biology?
That we have a reason?

>> Nature of Reality
This line of reasoning, without any evidence, leads into a twisting circle of speculation. Because I could ask what about four, five, ten, or a million basis for reality. When you have no evidence to back up a position, almost any answer is possible.


Sorry about that, for some reason it was eating up my message.

"I try not to deal in thinking about things with which I have no evidence towards, it keeps me from focusing on the things that really do need my attention right now that I can see and deal with."

I respect that; however this isn't something I think about all the time, rather something inside of me, a part of my psyche. It never interferes with the here and now; at least not for me.. 🙂

"What reason and evidence do you have to believe there is an Afterlife?"

Good question. An afterlife is not (of) the 5 senses, so (how) could it proven beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could one prove something spiritual; only through the thousands, perhaps millions of stories and accounts across the world. eg. NDE's (near death experiences) hauntings, spirit visitations, ufo sightings/abductions, messages from loved ones, etc. etc. Although many or most may be explained away; even if there is only 1 percent, it still does raise more questions.

I myself had a very mysterious/ brief experience about a month ago. I was fully awake, and very aware. I tried to back it up through logic, but it just wasn't there. It never happened like that before, or since. Rather strange, but not frightening.

I would definitely have to say free will! Not sure I put much stock in fate!

TW2

Ultra-deluxe thread necromancy! Awaken my child, AWAAAAAKEN!

I've refined my perspective on the fate vs freewill argument for several years since my last comments here. My biggest issue with this question is that the question itself seems rather malformed once we take into account that we are our brains, and any reactions we have are not imposed upon us but in actuality the representation of our own personalities and thought processes. Even if someone can predict the decisions we will make, because those decisions are ultimately a manifestation of who we are and what we believe, they are still made of our own "Free Will".

Because our environment limits the choices we can make, we can only make certain specific decisions in any situation. Even if our choices are still limited, those choices still reflect the will that is inherent in being who we are. So my argument here is that the question is malformed because while our choices are per-determined based on who we are, they are still based on who we are and thus chosen in the sense that we would only do what fits with our own being, rather than imposed on us as would be implied by being forced to do so against our own will.

fate is a historical representation of one's life
free will is how one lives
if one has that option