Gwendylyn Post
@Gwendylyn Post
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War
Good topic...on the matter of how war can be justified with religion, I would say my opinion is that it's based less on religion and more on the morals that religion involves, and I would say that you can love your neighbor and still war with your neighbor, because in my opinion wars are fought over principles when you get right down to it. A mother and her child can fight visiously (sp?) yet still love one another. The mother is fighting for her principle while the child is fighting for his/hers. Weird analogy, but it's all I can think of at the moment. I do not believe that in this day and age, religion is the driving force behind major wars. I believe it's the principals within religion that countries fight for or against...just so happens that those principals often come with religion. Boy I hope that made sense. For example, though I believe in God I am not a member of any church and would not classify myself as a Christian by modern definition, yet I support the war on terror because I believe in the principals behind it and I believe that unfortunately in extreme circumstances, war is the only answer.
Wars are either fought for or b/c of religion or territory. Yes, I agree religious wars seem hypercritical. What is needed is not the idea of freedom of religion but acceptance of cultural practices which encompasses so much more than only religion. Once we truly accept another culture, than tolerance can happen, and war may not be so much of an issue.
Wars seem to be a product of the intention to gain, whether it be the acquisition of land/resources/power etc.
Religion is more often than not wound up in the great tangle of propoganda associated with wars. It's used as a justification/support for aggression ie. notions of a Holy War/destroying the infidels/fighting for ones principles (phoenix, I think in the mother daughter analogy, it seems more likely that they would be both fighting to gain power and using their principles as a validation of arguement).
It's interesting how, with the rise of capitalism in the previous century, democratic ideals have manifested themselves as an almost religion - the one principle worshipped above all other - look at vietnam - a function of the cold war - fear of the domino effect - but indicative of a greater and unrelated power struggle between systems of belief.
I really could go on forever and ever but i don't have time - so much discussion to be had on this subject!
Religion is more often than not wound up in the great tangle of propoganda associated with wars. It's used as a justification/support for aggression ie. notions of a Holy War/destroying the infidels/fighting for ones principles (phoenix, I think in the mother daughter analogy, it seems more likely that they would be both fighting to gain power and using their principles as a validation of arguement).
It's interesting how, with the rise of capitalism in the previous century, democratic ideals have manifested themselves as an almost religion - the one principle worshipped above all other - look at vietnam - a function of the cold war - fear of the domino effect - but indicative of a greater and unrelated power struggle between systems of belief.
I really could go on forever and ever but i don't have time - so much discussion to be had on this subject!
"Wars seem to be a product of the intention to gain, whether it be the acquisition of land/resources/power etc."
This is true and if you ever heard of a well known game called 'risk',(parker brothers) it is based on the way in which wars are fought and won and power is distrubted and why! I think it was invented by the military.
"Religion is more often than not wound up in the great tangle of propoganda associated with wars. It's used as a justification/support for aggression ie. notions of a Holy War/destroying the infidels/fighting for ones principles"
Most wars have been fought over freedom and not just religion. Religious freedom has always been a subject of percecution and exiled etc.throughout history.
Throughout much of the world it was safer not to be a Christian or asscociate with the Christian churches, and in alot of places that is still true today! It is Christians who are still being murdered today and no others!!!! The US was founded on Christianity, but we except all faiths and allow complete religious freedom.
"Don't most religions preach love thy neighbor or something like that? How do you justify war?"
Yes, but you have to use some common sense along with it. We have a right to live free and so do others without the threat from people who disagree with our culture.
This is true and if you ever heard of a well known game called 'risk',(parker brothers) it is based on the way in which wars are fought and won and power is distrubted and why! I think it was invented by the military.
"Religion is more often than not wound up in the great tangle of propoganda associated with wars. It's used as a justification/support for aggression ie. notions of a Holy War/destroying the infidels/fighting for ones principles"
Most wars have been fought over freedom and not just religion. Religious freedom has always been a subject of percecution and exiled etc.throughout history.
Throughout much of the world it was safer not to be a Christian or asscociate with the Christian churches, and in alot of places that is still true today! It is Christians who are still being murdered today and no others!!!! The US was founded on Christianity, but we except all faiths and allow complete religious freedom.
"Don't most religions preach love thy neighbor or something like that? How do you justify war?"
Yes, but you have to use some common sense along with it. We have a right to live free and so do others without the threat from people who disagree with our culture.
Sunflower, you have GOT TO BE KIDDING! Christians being the only ppl murdered today. That is one of the most bigoted things I have EVER heard!
You sit up there on your high and mighty throne saying that ppl should accept YOUR culture! Maybe if the US stopped shoving 'your culture' down everyone elses throat and expecting ppl to bow to you, you may actually SEE that your nation has A LONG WAY TO GO in accepting cultures that are not christian based.
And Cortica...wars today are probably about acquisition more so but that is only very recent as compared to the history of mankind. WWII for example, the Christian crusades (which, incidentally Sunflower, was what got the Muslim ppl up in arms in the first place. Prior to the 'Christian crusades' where many many non christian innocents were murdered, they were very peaceful), The massacres and erradication of the Native American ppl b/c they were heathens- introduction of missionary schools (war on culture), etc, etc...religion was the intitial primary reason these wars existed. But yes, the jihad, as they state now, seems to be a 'cover story' to supress the real reasons..that of, they are sick and tired of the USA telling them how to run their country, and killing thousands of innocent ppl over there, who did not deserve to die.
You sit up there on your high and mighty throne saying that ppl should accept YOUR culture! Maybe if the US stopped shoving 'your culture' down everyone elses throat and expecting ppl to bow to you, you may actually SEE that your nation has A LONG WAY TO GO in accepting cultures that are not christian based.
And Cortica...wars today are probably about acquisition more so but that is only very recent as compared to the history of mankind. WWII for example, the Christian crusades (which, incidentally Sunflower, was what got the Muslim ppl up in arms in the first place. Prior to the 'Christian crusades' where many many non christian innocents were murdered, they were very peaceful), The massacres and erradication of the Native American ppl b/c they were heathens- introduction of missionary schools (war on culture), etc, etc...religion was the intitial primary reason these wars existed. But yes, the jihad, as they state now, seems to be a 'cover story' to supress the real reasons..that of, they are sick and tired of the USA telling them how to run their country, and killing thousands of innocent ppl over there, who did not deserve to die.
Sunflower, arent you Suzy Q? i thought i saw you guys have the same IP address last time and suzy Q said something about going out partying with her girl that was sunflower...this was long time ago. i may be wrong.
Luz,
You need to mind your own business. What you are doing is the equivelant of stalking somebody. If you continue to do it I will complain about you to the board cops!
You need to mind your own business. What you are doing is the equivelant of stalking somebody. If you continue to do it I will complain about you to the board cops!
"Sunflower, you have GOT TO BE KIDDING! Christians being the only ppl murdered today. That is one of the most bigoted things I have EVER heard!
You sit up there on your high and mighty throne saying that ppl should accept YOUR culture! Maybe if the US stopped shoving 'your culture' down everyone elses throat and expecting ppl to bow to you, you may actually SEE that your nation has A LONG WAY TO GO in accepting cultures that are not christian based."
LawGoddess, everytime your point of view is challenged you react with insults and cattiness. Act like a women instead of a child. Your opinion is just that--YOURS, and in most cases in it not only wrong but it is ingnorant of the facts!!!!
It is missonaries who are Christians who travel the world helping people who need it. These people risk their life to bring and give medical help, educations, clothing, and food. I dont recall any other religous group volunteering after Bangaladesh gets hit every year by typhoons or when Sudan was starving etc...it was the Red Cross and thousands of Christian volunteers. As far as raming our culture down others throats. Wrong again! When Afaganistan was given back their personal freedoms, one of the happiest things for me was watching them listening to music again. And do you know what they were listening to— Michael Jackson, Britney Spears and Madonna. They had the CHOICE to listen to what they wanted, and they chose this!!! I saw a documentary on the middle east, a girl was riding on the back of a camel with a transistor radio playing. The music was Madonna, hehehe. Strange but true. If people were left to make their own choices, they choose and love the American culture. The movies, music, clothing etc...all of it. It is not the problem. It is the bigoted ideologies and hatred that is taught to them about Christainty. Maybe a better handle for you would be-- LoudmouthGoddess!
Go ahead and site some examples of people being excuted for their relgious affiliations, by Americans or Christians!
You sit up there on your high and mighty throne saying that ppl should accept YOUR culture! Maybe if the US stopped shoving 'your culture' down everyone elses throat and expecting ppl to bow to you, you may actually SEE that your nation has A LONG WAY TO GO in accepting cultures that are not christian based."
LawGoddess, everytime your point of view is challenged you react with insults and cattiness. Act like a women instead of a child. Your opinion is just that--YOURS, and in most cases in it not only wrong but it is ingnorant of the facts!!!!
It is missonaries who are Christians who travel the world helping people who need it. These people risk their life to bring and give medical help, educations, clothing, and food. I dont recall any other religous group volunteering after Bangaladesh gets hit every year by typhoons or when Sudan was starving etc...it was the Red Cross and thousands of Christian volunteers. As far as raming our culture down others throats. Wrong again! When Afaganistan was given back their personal freedoms, one of the happiest things for me was watching them listening to music again. And do you know what they were listening to— Michael Jackson, Britney Spears and Madonna. They had the CHOICE to listen to what they wanted, and they chose this!!! I saw a documentary on the middle east, a girl was riding on the back of a camel with a transistor radio playing. The music was Madonna, hehehe. Strange but true. If people were left to make their own choices, they choose and love the American culture. The movies, music, clothing etc...all of it. It is not the problem. It is the bigoted ideologies and hatred that is taught to them about Christainty. Maybe a better handle for you would be-- LoudmouthGoddess!
Go ahead and site some examples of people being excuted for their relgious affiliations, by Americans or Christians!
should read cite not site.
Luz,
Why are you so interested in what Suzy is doing? What concern is she of yours? I know she can be a little difficult at times and hard to handle, but she isnt bothering anyone! I know she has been going through a lot of butter in her life and being able to come her and vent and talk to people has really helped her alot!! So why do you want to take that away from her? I noticed she gave you some good advice before when you need or wanted it, along with all the others who have now jumped on the backstabbing bandwagon!
You wont have such an easy time trying to run me off like you did her. I have a feeling she will be back and probably with more of an attitude then before! HAH
Why are you so interested in what Suzy is doing? What concern is she of yours? I know she can be a little difficult at times and hard to handle, but she isnt bothering anyone! I know she has been going through a lot of butter in her life and being able to come her and vent and talk to people has really helped her alot!! So why do you want to take that away from her? I noticed she gave you some good advice before when you need or wanted it, along with all the others who have now jumped on the backstabbing bandwagon!
You wont have such an easy time trying to run me off like you did her. I have a feeling she will be back and probably with more of an attitude then before! HAH
Somehow I seriously doubt it is ME that needs to get their facts straight.
Once again..another case of tunnel vision.
My husband has personally experienced missonary schools. HE was forceably taken from his home, had all his hair cut off (he is Aboriginal), was beaten with a stick everytime he spoke his natural language (the only one he knew at the time), was beaten and tortured for trying to run away, was beaten for not getting his school work correct...and the list goes on..ALL b/c the 'christians' there thought he needed to be rescued. He did not go through this experience alone. While some missionaries DO do good work, it is not as cut and dry as you seem to think. (tunnel vision)
I too am happy about the situation in Afghanistan...but just b/c they may listen to Madonna (who is also a personal favourite of mine) doesn't mean they prefer YOUR culture over their own! So, you saw an interview and a few ppl who listened to American music...well when you find a source that states they have surveyed 90% of the population and all say America is their preferred culture get back to me. Otherwise, once again, your tunnel vision blinds you. Music alone doesn't define a culture.
Finally, sure I insulted you...you ARE a bigot.
Once again..another case of tunnel vision.
My husband has personally experienced missonary schools. HE was forceably taken from his home, had all his hair cut off (he is Aboriginal), was beaten with a stick everytime he spoke his natural language (the only one he knew at the time), was beaten and tortured for trying to run away, was beaten for not getting his school work correct...and the list goes on..ALL b/c the 'christians' there thought he needed to be rescued. He did not go through this experience alone. While some missionaries DO do good work, it is not as cut and dry as you seem to think. (tunnel vision)
I too am happy about the situation in Afghanistan...but just b/c they may listen to Madonna (who is also a personal favourite of mine) doesn't mean they prefer YOUR culture over their own! So, you saw an interview and a few ppl who listened to American music...well when you find a source that states they have surveyed 90% of the population and all say America is their preferred culture get back to me. Otherwise, once again, your tunnel vision blinds you. Music alone doesn't define a culture.
Finally, sure I insulted you...you ARE a bigot.
That's it? That's your argument. I'm a bigot! I am probably the least bigoted person on this board and if my opinions dont reflect it, then you dont understand what it is I am saying! Apparenty it is going over your head. I have my belifes, but when did I try to shove them down your throat?
I think you should read my thread about 'The Past'. You remind me of my ex. He was the type of person who always wanted to revisit the past. Never wanted to see the good, always the bad and the negative. I tried and tried for years to make him see things in a different light, but he was just that type of person(depressive). I am the type that walks around with a secretive smile always on my face, and I have more people smile back at me and even laugh and ask me what I am thinking about. Most of the time it is something someone has said right here on this board, and it stays with me. I refuse to be depressed for long. I try to figure out my next move or look at the goodside of things instead. There is alot of good in the world LG, and you should try and see that side too, and balance out your bitterness alittle.
I'm sorry about your husbands childhood. There is alot of bad things that happen to all of us, and while it is important to remember where we came from it is equally important not to dwell on it. I hope things are much better for him now.
Take Care
Khai-Khai
I think you should read my thread about 'The Past'. You remind me of my ex. He was the type of person who always wanted to revisit the past. Never wanted to see the good, always the bad and the negative. I tried and tried for years to make him see things in a different light, but he was just that type of person(depressive). I am the type that walks around with a secretive smile always on my face, and I have more people smile back at me and even laugh and ask me what I am thinking about. Most of the time it is something someone has said right here on this board, and it stays with me. I refuse to be depressed for long. I try to figure out my next move or look at the goodside of things instead. There is alot of good in the world LG, and you should try and see that side too, and balance out your bitterness alittle.
I'm sorry about your husbands childhood. There is alot of bad things that happen to all of us, and while it is important to remember where we came from it is equally important not to dwell on it. I hope things are much better for him now.
Take Care
Khai-Khai
then why are you so defensive? it was just a simple question, my child ^^ lol
Oh, That was ugly, sorry!
I am just loyal to my people and dont like it when someone tries to mess with them.
I actually liked you quite a bit before all this started. You were one of my favorite characters on the board.
Anyway, hope you are well and for some reason I have the feeling that you are very tired from working way too HARD! To the point of exhaustion. There is really no reason to because you cannot be replaced, your postion is secure!!!
If this is true I am sending you some healing energy. Get some rest!!!
I am just loyal to my people and dont like it when someone tries to mess with them.
I actually liked you quite a bit before all this started. You were one of my favorite characters on the board.
Anyway, hope you are well and for some reason I have the feeling that you are very tired from working way too HARD! To the point of exhaustion. There is really no reason to because you cannot be replaced, your postion is secure!!!
If this is true I am sending you some healing energy. Get some rest!!!
ok suzy Q
you suck!
why do you think I am suzyq and why are you up her rear so much? you are kind of a stalker arent you!
It is just sooo obvious Sunflower.
You know that old saying, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but, not all of the people all of the time"??
Well, this is one of those times. Simple as that.
Well, this is one of those times. Simple as that.
Sunflower.. whether or not you're suzy-Q id irrelevane to me. You stated "If people were left to make their own choices, they choose and love American culture."
I think this is a prejudiced remark. I extremely disagree. "Americn culture" as you present it is Christian based, so then why are there people of different ethnicities that keep their religions in America if Christian is the best? You preached the Americn way of tolerance, but you underestimate the effect the media has on you. Television feeds our ego and when we Americans watch it, it shows us what we want to see- that Americans are better and stronger and more compassionate than others. I do not denounce the work that Christian groups do in helping leviating the sick and bringing education to some areas, but you cannot hold that as true at all times. You say that they ALWAYS help, never hinder. Lawgoddess's story about her husband is echoed still today where our Native Americans still voice their stories of missionary schools whre they frgot their own heritage. Truly heartbreaking
The point of her story was not to bring up the past, but to make you aware that injustices do happen, have happened, and will continue to happen until the hold that ignorance has over you and many others disappears. I hope you learn something from these message boards in the long run.
Peace.
I think this is a prejudiced remark. I extremely disagree. "Americn culture" as you present it is Christian based, so then why are there people of different ethnicities that keep their religions in America if Christian is the best? You preached the Americn way of tolerance, but you underestimate the effect the media has on you. Television feeds our ego and when we Americans watch it, it shows us what we want to see- that Americans are better and stronger and more compassionate than others. I do not denounce the work that Christian groups do in helping leviating the sick and bringing education to some areas, but you cannot hold that as true at all times. You say that they ALWAYS help, never hinder. Lawgoddess's story about her husband is echoed still today where our Native Americans still voice their stories of missionary schools whre they frgot their own heritage. Truly heartbreaking
The point of her story was not to bring up the past, but to make you aware that injustices do happen, have happened, and will continue to happen until the hold that ignorance has over you and many others disappears. I hope you learn something from these message boards in the long run.
Peace.
I agree Lawgoddess that Christians have tried too often to shove their beliefs upon the rest of society. It never made sense to me that it is OK to beat the 'ignorant', so they may learn the 'correct' ways! They must comply! To be 'saved'! It is sick...just sick!
The Christian way has never been democratic in its efforts and for some reason (protection of the churches) they have always gotten away with brutality.
I was sorry to read that your husband was subject to this ridiculousness.
The Christian way has never been democratic in its efforts and for some reason (protection of the churches) they have always gotten away with brutality.
I was sorry to read that your husband was subject to this ridiculousness.
whoa, lawgoddess, that sux your hubbie had to go through that, i hope hes ok and i hope your ok too =/
Thanx guys..all of you. Hubby is ok..as ok as any other native american can be. The school was a picnic to what he had to endure later on.
He is one of the few who took control of his life and remains positive. He put himself through school, became a lawyer and went back and worked for the community. Then he met and married me and has moved to the land down under where the bloody sun never stops shining and the land is drought ridden! LOL..(not a funny matter really)
He is one of the few who took control of his life and remains positive. He put himself through school, became a lawyer and went back and worked for the community. Then he met and married me and has moved to the land down under where the bloody sun never stops shining and the land is drought ridden! LOL..(not a funny matter really)
Hey Gwen, remember that Eagles song about conquest "in the name of destiny and in the name of god"? War in the name of religion is simply an excuse, nothing more. War would happen even if religion wasn't mentioned at all. People just add religion in as an extra justification to make it seem "right" that they are going out to kill people. Plus a lot of people tend to get fanatical about religion, so if you tell them that according to their religion, war is the right thing to do, they'll be more likely to do it. There are so many wonderful ways to twist everything for your purpose whether it was ment to be used in that way or not. . . Religion is no exception.
How is accepting religion going to have much impact on humans when all we do is create wars. We might be accepting our cultures and stuff but the basic instincts of man is that its our decision, our will. so i dont see how we wont find any other way to create it again. And i dont see how world peace or accepting everything is going to happen, it seems more like some false optimism to me..but hey..i guess things CAN happen. I wanna learn about politics even if im just a teen, its interesting 🙂
but i guess we could do anything just to improve the state that we are in right now, i'm sure accepting religions will help a bit but somehow i get the feeling that deep down some ppl would still have that grudge against one another.
Right now i was wondering and like... a lot of ppl just think so badly of man kind like they say that man will always do wrong because of our instincts, but by us saying that and only looking at that situation we might be the cause of the problem also. We realize it and we talk about the problems of the day, but we do nothing to try and "fix" it. I dont know how to "fix" the imperfections of the world but maybe if we just accepted eachothers mistakes of man then it could do much better for us. Although thats really hard..but i dont know..just thinking, my thoughts are always changing so this probably would change too. Who knows, just thought i'd like to share..for once.
hm..nvm, i dont think accepting man kind would resolve much, it might make us more compassionte and understanding but man would still make those mistakes and thus the mistakes would still be there, maybe if we just had to will to make a difference then it can happen, but then again, in some situations ppl tend to NOT think about that and only look at their own. So therefore, i really dont know how wars can be stopped or how any problems can be stopped but i dont think sometimes its not suppose to be stopped. If this world was perfect or if mankind was exactly like eachother we might just complain about our own very existence. Problems will always come our way so i guess its just best for us to do our best...if that makes sense. LAwgoddessss 😆 i never said this, but i really admire you =p
Its never gonna end until the end. Read revelations.
Well Luz, I guess I'm verging on politics now but I have to say anyway...
Someone once told me that people who lean towards Republican believe tha deep down, humans aren't so good and without rule they would go wrong. Democrats, on the other hand, believe deep down that humans are mstly moral people and will do good. I guess it is the way you look at people that forms your ideas of war. I think that inside everyone is the motivation to be good and do right- it is society/mental disorders/ brainwashing/ ignorance that makes people go to war in the first place. Oh and religion is a scapegoat most of the time when it comes to war (like morgan said).
Someone once told me that people who lean towards Republican believe tha deep down, humans aren't so good and without rule they would go wrong. Democrats, on the other hand, believe deep down that humans are mstly moral people and will do good. I guess it is the way you look at people that forms your ideas of war. I think that inside everyone is the motivation to be good and do right- it is society/mental disorders/ brainwashing/ ignorance that makes people go to war in the first place. Oh and religion is a scapegoat most of the time when it comes to war (like morgan said).
I AGREE!!!
This is just me, but personally I don't think the difference between right and wrong plays a big part in politics.
Yes morgan, it does. A big part. I don't want Bush back in ofice again because I believe he is wrong in his dealing with Iraq and the UN in this way. I want universal health care because i think it's the right thing to do. A person will not support abortion if they think it is morally wrong and hateful... ect, ect. (I already know what you'regoing to sa back to me, so go ahead and get it over with)
What I ment was, do you think polititions think that way? Or do they just think of getting reelected? You know, I'm talking about political corruption.
Yes I know I know (i knew you were gog to mention that)... we had this discussion about Golisano running for Goverenor... Basically it seems like you think that most politicians are corrupt and that they are running just for the office. I have faith (LoL what a paradox) that most of those politicians are runing because they want to do something to help society, that they have beliefs and what to implement them in office, and I have no real reason to believe that a person will say something opposite of what he/she believes in just to get votes. It's likely that they may not speak of an isse so they don't alienate a group, but I don't believe that they would outright lie... (with the exceptions of Republicans of course)
Just kidding on that last note =) *whispers "democrat in denial" at morgan*
Just kidding on that last note =) *whispers "democrat in denial" at morgan*
Gwen, just because I like to hang out with Democrats does not make me one. Anyway, hmmm... I just really hated Golisano. I think I'll run for governor. I'd make a kick ass governor, don't you think?
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