LOGIC...is it the only Valid way to see things?

Big-D in the buildin after a brief moment of absence, but I've been speaking with my Virgoan friend and, we both being like logical computers, we can't see much benefit of attacking things with emotion. I've been so blinded by thinking, I've realized that I don't understand the TRUE benefit of emotional responce at all. Crying about things don't benefit me, getting angry about things only blinds you; what am I thinking? I mean, when I stress a point, I do get loud a little, but it's only to emphasise my statement. Please, I don't know WHY I'm asking my logical aquarians this question, but I think there's something I'm missing. I'm soo emotionally detached, I can see the negative AND positive in every argument, even when I've truly decided to stick with my own truth. I can find benefit in talking to people even when what they say I can't relate to, where most people would take OFFENCE to it with EMOTION, where the person is WILLINGLY doesn't want to KNOW, which ends up in IGNORANCE...get me? I can UNDERSTAND LOGICALLY, but I can't RELATE...maybe that's where either experience, or emotion comes in...

I see emotion as a cloud. I want the TRUTH, and as you know...everyone has their OWN TRUTHS. Right or wrong? Why be mad at this person, trying to change his ways of thinking when it ain't gonna happen?! I'd rather observe and try to UNDERSTAND his ways of thinking instead of wanting to hit him in the face! That's why I ask questions instead of answering in strong emotion.

These are not the only emotions.

Emotions are preconditioned. Even if they no longer serve a purpose to you, they have in the past (functional autonomy.

Bottom line, they dont work for every situation, but you do need them.

What exactly are you asking?

Logic by itself is useless.

You need experience.

Experience shapes your emotions. Gives your perspective.

Logic analyses it.

Without experience, logic is inpractical.

Primegen "but logic is blinding"

SOO TRUE!!! Sometimes, when I don't understand something...I can't deal with it and get frustrated...I think this is where the benefit of having emotion deal with situations help. Being calm and collected helps me through COUNTLESS arguments that could have ended in physical brutality, so someone PLEASE explain to me what type of benefit could you gain off of reacting to things EMOTIONALLY...

Haffo...thank you for the input. That right there may be the answer I was looking for when it comes to logic as the only "real" conclusion. Logic will pave the way, but emotion is what helps you execute and follow the path effectively...now I see...

TWO NUNS

There were two nuns...

One of them was known as Sister Mathematical (SM),

and the other one was known as Sister Logical (SL).

It is getting dark and they are still far away from the convent.

SM: Have you noticed that a man has been following us for the past thirty-eight and a half minutes? I wonder what he wants.

SL: It's logical. He wants to rape us.

SM: Oh, no! At this rate he will reach us in 15 minutes at the most! What can we do?

SL: The only logical thing to do of course is to walk faster.

SM: It's not working.

SL: Of course it's not working. The man did the only logical thing. He started to walk faster, too.

SM: So, what shall we do? At this rate he will reach us in one minute.

SL: The only logical thing we can do is split. You go that way and I'll go this way. He cannot follow us both.

So the man decided to follow Sister Logical.

Sister Mathematical arrives at the convent and is worried about what has happened to Sister Logical.

Then Sister Logical arrives.

SM: Sister Logical ! Thank God you are here! Tell me what happened!

SL: The only logical thing happened. The man couldn't follow us both,so he followed me

SM: Yes, yes! But what happened then?

SL: The only logical thing happened. I started to run as fast as I could and he started to run as fast as he could.

SM: And?

SL: The only logical thing happened. He reached me

SM: Oh, dear! What did you do?

SL: The only logical thing to do. I lifted my dress up.

SM: Oh, Sister! What did the man do?

SL: The only logical thing to do. He pulled down his pants.

SM: Oh, no! What happened then?

SL: Isn't it logical, Sister?
A nun with her dress up can run faster than man with his pants down.

And for those of you who thought it would be dirty,

I'll pray for you!

In science, intuition is more important than logic. Einstein himself told that. Without intuition great advencements cannot be made.

Intuition requires experience.

😛 😛 😛

PLEASE explain to me what type of benefit could you gain off of reacting to things EMOTIONALLY...

In a positive situation...you can recieve the emotion your putting out, for example Love...everyone wants to know they are loved.

Logic doesnt help you feel compassion or emapthy...which also allows tolerance.

Thats all I got.

" so someone PLEASE explain to me what type of benefit could you gain off of reacting to things EMOTIONALLY..."

I don't think any. Telling the truth does give you the most benefit. And people suck it like a sponge. They don't need to be appealed to emotions to change their course. Actally many people try to avoid such manipulations, mostly unconsciously. Therefore, the only way is to get to the people, is to tell the truth.

Telling the truth shouldn't be like single result statement. It should include every pathway, every milestone, every corner to your final statement. In short, you have to categorise and structuralise your understanding of truth. People will never miss that.

Lady M;

This may be why most logical-based zodiac signs are emotionally detached. They see love, and try to approach it logically.

Primegen: "youhear people say "you made me mad!" No, you made yourself mad...When someone says this, they are really just finding an excuse to pass the buck for their lack of control and poor actions"

Exactly. Primegen, you're a very intellegent person and you helped me see something that was all to obvious to see. Well, as a human, I will have my experiences with emotion wether I like it or not, so why not ACCEPT it, and deal with it from there...fighting emotion is obviously useless.

There are some wanabe detached people - and some wanabe emotional ones. Logical people don't like what they can not understand. Emotional people are a liability and way to risky.
The thing is Emotions are natural & from birth you ball your eyes out so why not attempt to understand them & control them rather than dismissing them all together?

Primegen

People are emotional. This is how this world turns. Deal with it.

Now,

People get mad because of the overload over their nervous system. More percisely, our control systems. What makes overload on our nervious system? A line of stereotypes that have same effect as real experiences. Blame our stereotypes not control systems. Totally supressing your emotions is worse than letting it out a little.

"...fighting emotion is obviously useless."

I don't think so, emotion is not really different than thought, and just like thought can be controlled, so can emotion.

"Emotions can be controlled with your thoughts?"

Yep, just like it's possible to not think a certain thing(or at least to ignore and restrain it), it's possible not to feel a certain thing, as long as you are aware of it.

Passion is a required quality. It needed for people to normally function.

Passion is an emotion. Dismissing emotions alltogether also dismisses passion. You can't make double standart with your emotions. You either do or not do. Otherwise you create confusion within yourself. Since emotions are needed and must be expressed, other people have to take your emotions into consideration. So, instead of dismissing emotions alltogether we simply need to develop 'empathy' and not overload others. Life will be much happier that way.

Hey any of you notice earth spins around on its axis pretty fast! Wow

Haffo-I'm not saying we should ban emotions or something, but there are times when some emotions need to make way for goals/other emotions.

"So what controls our thoughts then?"

Enviroment and genes, so control is pretty much an illusion anyway, what I'm trying to say isn't really about one talking control over one's self, but of one finding harmony.
^sounds pretty weird when I read it.

" So if emotions can be controlled by thought, what controls thought?"

Truth. Ideals.

Your soul controls your thoughts - the Universe (the greater being) controls our souls. It is egotistical to think that we control ourselves.

"Where did you read that Yama?"

Nowhere, I'm just pulling it out of my ass.😛

"Do you believe that range of human thought and emotions have been documented and logically analysed?"

No, but they will be.

"So if control is an illusion, would it be more accurate to say that that we can repress a thought or emotion to the back of our mind for a short while until it can't be ignored long enough."

That's not exactly what I meant by it. Anyway, people repress emotions and thoughts all the time, only when the feeling/thought is an integral part of the person's persoanlity, then it can't really be repressed.

"What is Truth Haffo?"

Truth with universe - science.

Truth with people - behviours and reasons expressed to you without change.

In the brain.😛

Primegen

Not every truth is known. What you say is basicly wants a person to partially disband his/her control over himself/herself. Just like ignore it. Not every person will do that.

There are 3 ways. Either we ignore facts. Either we follow facts. Or we develop empathy.


We shouldn't ignore facts because it disrupts our self expression.

We can't follow facts because we don't know the truth and can cause damage.

We can develop empathy and keep things in ballance until we learn the truth.

"In the sense do you think that it can be derived logically?"

No, brutually. The truth comes brutually and digged till the bottom.

"You hear people say "you made me mad!" No, you made yourself mad. When someone says this, they are really just finding an excuse to pass the buck for their lack of control and poor actions."

No I did understand you right. You say "you made me mad" and then "no you made mad yourself" as if there is no external factors.

"I was talking about human perception haffo."

Human perception is not always based on logical things. Human perception is highly dependant on it experience. Since experience itself is not usually logic based, the perception itself is also not logic based. But this is what it is about complex percetions like understanding human behaviour. Basic perceptions like seeing, hearing, tasting etc are totally logic based yet limited.

Human perception of human behaviour can be logic based, but for that we need 1000 years. Squeezing every shit from our society can take very loong time. After all, what we have today has developed in 10 000 years.

"So are you saying you have no self control Haffo? You are nothing but a puppet?"

I have some share of ignorance towards my behaviours with people. I might get some offencive attacks ignored, but that doesn't mean that if I could take my revenge, I would not.

Simply said, I do realise that I have lack of control, but that is not "self control" by any means to be close.

When someone makes me mad, I am mad. It's not a choise. Reacting on it is a choise.

I know that not reacting on it is not 'effective'.

And because I don't know what is more effective, I shut up.

Or show empaty in case if it's not me.

"The norm of the way you were brought up may say they made you mad."

No norm of bringing up dictates me how to react. In that sense, I'm absolutely detached. The thing is, I have certain posture that I 'admire' and find confortable regardless of what others think. My intuition dictates this posture. It may be wrong or right. And my intuition is based on my personal experiences, not other people experiences. I am 100% detached from other people experiences and that I can assure. It's weird thing, but I'm 100% sure that I'm detached from other people experiences.

So when people make me mad, which means an assault to my posture, I really get mad. Elimination of this feeling is impossible. However, I do chose the way I react to it. I do realise that the way of reaction is my choise and I'm aware of consequences. But I also realise that the way I handle situation does not make things dealt appropriately. The sense of justise is not satisfied. I know that acting purely on that feeling will take me to the jail so I shut up. I do not consider this as "freedoom". But I also realise that this kind of freedom does not yet exist. It's not yet practical, but possible. Possible if truth would known. The kind of truth that we don't know yet. Perhaps in another 1000 years we could squeeeze these kind shitz out and feel really free.

Unknown scares people.

Primegen

The point is;

We have to develop empathy to smoother enviroument where we exist today. We don't know how to handle situations in the most effective way so we can try to show some room for 'uncertainity'.

Surely, some people will try to take advantage of this and that will make us even more mad. But that will provide great source of information to understand the truth.

That is what I said too - the unknown scares people. I think most people miss the bigger picture - What encompasses emotion.

"Empathy should be a given, I would think that is something everyone has. "

Empathy is directly related with level of understanding. With ability to read body language. If person has no well developed level of understanding it may not able to show necessary empathy to 'chill out'.

Here you can add pride where people try to protect their posture no matter what the attackers reason is and here you have a fight.

Empathy is very subjective and therefore uncertainity. Yes you are right.

I think the only thing we can do right now, is to find the best method to handle the situation. For example; placing a goal. No matter what happens, the situations should be coming to the level of violence.

But some people see this differently. As I said above, unknown things scary people. So if a person does not know what it feels to be in jail, it will fear it and probably avoid it which mean obedience. But a person who has closely studies a jail, could probably avoid the fear and therefore obedience. As you see, the control factor heere is fear. I think it should be purposefullness and idealism. Because people purpose and ideals rarely change on state of fear. Therefore they are not abusive. But most people are not there. They are selfish and only think about personal gains. Most people do show this more especially when they gain power.

So I say method should be changed. But that will take another 100 years I guess and another 1000 year to find the truth.

Heh, who cold follow it when most people havent even started to realise that they have 'problems'.

I think emotions are very important. Let's take passion for example.

Passion is a driving force. It mobilises a person's qualities to create a result. Passion just like any other emotion could be deceived. People could use passion for wrong things too, no matter wether they know it or not. But the passion as an object by itself is neutral. And useful. Logic here is just a method to find the shortest connection therefore the most effective way. Just like Saggiturius said, logic is only the way of reasoning. We reason to find the best way. But still, our driving force aka passion is still there and it has it own use. And it use is no any way related to logic itself. Passion is an engine. Logic is the method. Technology. Like in real life, technology has nothing to do with engine working. It just makes it more effective. Engine works no matter wether technology is up to date or not. They can't mix. They have different purposes. Therefore, we can't disregard emotions at all. They all are engines.

Yama, in this thread, you sound like a dirty behaviorist.

"since it's obvious that i'm unappreciated here, if only because i don't appreciate anyone else"

I do sense like you think it's not fair?

Oh okay.

What if Timothy McVeigh was framed?

What makes ya say that Freebird?

Emotions are what bring a part of the 'self'to the debate. Not everything is logical, and so cannot be explained in this way. To use an emotional response is to try and understand what cannot truly be understood. The problem is that we all think and approach our situations very differently. I like logical methods..they just arent always practical!!

well LadyM....too many things did not make sense in that case. I did quite a bit of research back when it happened - I feel he was used as a scapegoat.

So many of us only see what is presented to us and believe that and that only. We don't see or hear what is not said because we have been conditioned to believe what the news wants us to believe. Interesting....ever notice this? beLIEve? Kawinkadink? hmmm....*shrugs shoulders*

Just my thoughts LadyM......and only thoughts.....

how ya doing btw?

"fighting emotion is obviously useless."

-i agree. being a cancer myself, i am OVER EMOTIONAL...which i cannot stand but i also have a very hard time controlling it. but i think aquas, a lot of time, fight their feelings and emotions, which is also no good...but i am sure it is just as difficult for them to control.

This is such an interesting topic.

Being a big logical type person myself, I have this commonality with my ex aqua too. The fact that we both approach things logically rather than emotionally (I guess we Virgos use logic a lot too).

The problem with using only logic as a reponse mechanism to events is that when your emotions are not being considered, sooner or later they can come back and hunt you down.
Clear example for me is how me and ex aqua broke up. It was the logical thing to do at the time, so we went our separate ways, but months after she couldn't control her feelings for me any longer and once I knew that I realized that neither did I. So we aske ourselves today, what went wrong and how to stop this...

Someone here sais that logic paves the way and emotions give you the force you need to get there, and it is so true. Because even now, that logically it would make more sense for me to be with the new Libra I met, I will have to have some sort of feelings to venture into something new and leave what I had with my aqua behind.

Now, someone here asked, so are our emotions controlled by our thoughts?

My opinion, is yes and no.

Yes, because we have these different levels of consciousness and subsconciusness.

First we are exposed to a list of different thoughts (this list can be in our control or not, depending on how much powere we have to chose to listen, hear and experience what we do).

Second, we chose (unless forced) to keep some of those thoughts we are exposed to.

Third, we push those chosen thoughts into a subsconcious level. That subsconcious level is what produces feelings we have over time.

Fourth, those feelings, produce not only perceptions but actions we take.

Fifth, those actions produce a result.

So, in brief, yes, we do start with thoughts, but no, not all our thoughts are pre-selected by us consciously. Sometimes we do have a choice about what we are expose to and experience, sometimes we don't.
When we do have a choice, then we have greater probabilities to select from a list of thoughts what to believe. Then we press those selected thoughts and turn them (subsciously) into feelings, that produce actions, and actions that produce results.

Our minds are truly powerful, but to resolve the equation between logic and emotion we can just expect to be completely in control...at least not yet.

VLL

branh "I've found that many situations can make me emotional, but the logical aspect kicks in"

I can relate to this, but what happens branh, when you try to stay calm and collected about things but emotion tends to be too strong to control? I haven't experienced this, but do you think this is why people act insane in certain situations? Where they try to contain themselves soo much that there is an emotional explosion that comes out when you snap? I've seen the calmest people go berserk over constant shoving...then after that emotional outburst, they feel as though they feel soo much better they've got it out of their system. This wouldn't have been achieved through the mind...so this could be a plus to emotion over logic. What do you think?

virgowithalittleLibra: "Someone here sais that logic paves the way and emotions give you the force you need to get there, and it is so true."

Heh...that was me who came up with this conlusion. Haffo's input on how logic by itself would be useless helped me with this answer. Emotion is there, believe it or not. There are times where emotion CANNOT be controlled. So instead of suffering by understanding there is no benefit in extreme, blind emotion...let THAT be the drive needed to walk the logical path. Virgow/libra's entry is a good example of this being correct.

Logically thinking, you know that there are MANY correct paths to the truth (the path being the experience and the truth being my "strong opinion" or my "own fact"). Logical people (like me) are willing to sacrifice emotion for the truth, which can lead to even more emotional pain. Like primegen said to me, "Logic can be blinding" and I can't see that if I could have been emotional BUT logical about things, possibly STEERING instead of fighting my feelings (as in CONSIDERING my feelings instead of ignoring them), I could possibly be happy in the end and even have the truth that I've been looking for with a WAY better experience...a path that I was too BLINDED to see...this is why I ask questions.