— Jung (v. Freud) & Astrology

— Jung v. Freud


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The Swiss Psychologist and former Freud disciple Carl Gustav Jung was interested in the teachings of alchemy and astrology, especially in the later phases of his working life.

The resulting insights can be found in his Analytical Psychology.

This theory goes far beyond the teachings of Freud.


Freud assumes that a child is born as a "tabula rasa", and the character begins to form from birth onwards.


Jung, on the contrary, states in his book Psychological Types:

The individual disposition is already a factor in childhood; it is innate, and not acquired in the course of life.

The whole theory of astrology is based on this principle.


The horoscope, being a "map of the psyche", can point to character traits which have not yet become conscious.

With its help we may get to know ourselves better and come to a more complete understanding of our true nature.

Jung's Analytical Psychology attempts something very similar: individuation and arrival at one's true self.


— Link
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This sounds like the Nature v. Nuture argument.


Nature being the crux of Astrology, in this context-- and I tend to agree.


Of course "nuture" would have its effects, but only to a certain degree; it must work with what is already there.


What say you-- participation on an astrology site, notwithstanding?

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Like Jung, I believe children are born with inherit traits - astrology, heredity, natural personality.

However, these children are also influenced by environmental influences such as their parental guidance, cultural expectations, class designation, etc.

I believe it is a combination of both.

Basically children are born innocent and develop the sense of what is right vs wrong as deligated by society and parental teachings.

At the same time, it is quite evident in an infant whether that child is an introvert or extrovert - that is the personality they are born with. That said, the environment affects whether an extroverted child is treated with rejection, distaste, etc and if that extrovert is constantly met with discouraging factors against their natural tendency, then that child will learn to become more introverted.

Another thing to look at is fear. Is an infant naturally afraid or spiders (for instance) or are they taught to be afraid of spiders because their parents teach them to be? Fears can be either usually a learned behavior or a natural instinct. We fear from lack of knowledge (afraid of things we know nothing about) or we fear becomes knowledge to be fearful is gained from other sources (such as other people's fear and thinking we should be afraid too). Goes both ways on the fear aspect.

I remember being insanely intrigued by this during my history classes. Suprisingly, the "tabula rasa" theory /people are born blank and form character during their lifetime based on their experiences, surroundings/ sounded much more believable to me. The more I think about it, it still does. Dunno how I ended up with this hobby, lol.

Yet another wrong theory by Freud! Not that Jung got is always right, but at least he had such a fascinating mind!

So what influences our behaviour, from the day we were born? One educated guess it would be the genes we inherit. Others would say it's in the stars! I think it's a combination of both. To have any effect, genes need to be expressed. Stars may affect the gene expression patterns in different regions of the brain (and not only brain, but since we talk about personality...). It is also known that the environment ("nurture", but not only...) is responsible to a large extent, perhaps 60% .

Below it's a fragment from a recent article called "Do Genes Influence Personality?" by MV Kraus, which I particularly like, because it leaves space for speculation that there must be something else too, other than genes...

"So, then genes don't influence personality?

The current prevailing genetic evidence seems to suggest that we actually don't have genes for personality. And this conclusion doesn't come from a lack of trying: The US government has spent billions on genetic research. Billions. BILLIONS!!! When I think about all the $ $ that went into this "gene for.." research, I want to throw myself out the second floor window of the psychology building. The fall wouldn't kill me, but I imagine it would hurt just as bad as it does to realize that much of our research funding was flushed down the "gene for.." toilet.

Of course, the conclusion that genes don't influence personality is most certainly wrong, after all, we have decades of twin research showing similarity in personality between identical twins. At least some of that similarity has to be genetic. Are we missing something that might help uncover the great mystery linking genes and personality?

We're still not there yet.
Remember that twin studies suggested that 40% of identical twin personality was genetic? Well 6.6% in the dopamine genes study is a far-cry from 40% in this twin research. Where does the rest of the heritability go?"

I would also like to point out that studies of twins cannot differentiate between the genetic influence and astrological blueprint.

"I agree to some extent, but environmental and circumstantial factors can completely change and alter a persons character and even psyche on a permanent basis."

I'm not convinced. Maybe after brain injury, tumour, stroke or "brain washing". Then you practically lose the "tools" to respond how you would like to.

I wouldn't say I changed much, personality wise, since I was a teenager or so. Not even after living in three different countries and speaking (and thinking) in their language.

Did you change?

Some people have a disposition to be a certain way from birth. Such as impulsive. That doesn't mean they're going to actually turn out to be impulsive but it's very likely since innate factors incline them to be. On the other hand, your childhood experiences and the environment you grow up in has a lot to do with how you turn out. Like maybe if your home environment was a certain way you would develop that impulsivity that you're inclined to. Or if you had a hard live you might learn to never trust anyone before you're even a teenager. That may make you mean, quiet, or whatever else even if you weren't inclined to be naturally.

Also nature vs nurture should not even be an argument anymore. Lots of psychologists agree that both work together.

Everything I posted I learned in my developmental psych class last semester.

Also Freud was wrong on a lot of his theories and is only still popular because he talked about a lot of things that no one else wanted to or had talked about before. That's all I can think about when someone mentions Freud.

Posted by xcake
Maybe some people are blank canvases while others are already filled with colours.

Does everyone have to fit in the same one?

Yes because that would be going against science. Disposition is real. Like in the twin studies mentioned. Even if the twins were separated at birth and adopted into completely different environments, they still shared similar personalities, characteristics, habits, etc. This suggests that there are factors that were gained before birth that affected their outcome. This can happen with kids who aren't twins too, but looking at the twin study is a great way to understand how this works. Innate factors don't pick and choose which child to attach to. Everyone is born with them. There are some who can grow up without being influenced by them, but many will be since they're more inclined to. In the end, you don't have only innate factors and you don't have only environmental factors (your blank slate there). They always work together. Because science.

"This can happen with kids who aren't twins too" Sorry, I mean this DOES happen with kids who aren't twins, too. I still have problems using absolutes in my typing because of self esteem-y stuff.

Posted by xcake
Science or the theories that are proven correct at

Im just wondering, if were already built a certain way as in we are who we are, how much are we in control of our own destiny?

How our personality develops is mostly out of our hands. But that really is a small part of 'destiny', anyway. Later in life when you're brain is more developed you have choices. You can choose to give up, you can choose to let yourself be surrounded by negativity, you can choose to stand up for yourself, you can choose these things that are related to your personality and most of the time you can break out of what you normally are to make these choices. Such as, if you're normally meek and uncertain, you can still choose to stand up for yourself even if it's harder for you than it would other people. That's probably because we aren't socialized to believe that things are hopeless and there's no other choice but to give up. You can choose these things. Personality is just your base. You still have choices and you still have control of things. I suppose in the end you can think of it more as being guided to do or choose certain things than it is a force to work against or 'destiny'. You're you. It would be entirely too tiresome to trace back to everything in your life that contributes to what you do now, so don't worry about destiny. Just think of yourself as unique and important, because you are. If you believe in destiny as it's actually meant, it is almost impossible to change so if you worry about it, then you'll be full of grey hairs and maybe some other issues, too. ; )

Freud was a Jew.
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Beware of the jews. Why?

They want you to feel guilty about your sexuallity.
They want you to feel uncomfortable with your body.

(Porn industry is ruled by the jews)

They want you to believe that you need things like fame, money, appereance.
They want you to worship their god: Global Economy.

They rule this Material World.
They hide the truth.
-------

Stay free my friends !!

Posted by CharlieSlaughter
Freud was a Jew.
----------
Beware of the jews. Why?

They want you to feel guilty about your sexuallity.
They want you to feel uncomfortable with your body.

(Porn industry is ruled by the jews)

They want you to believe that you need things like fame, money, appereance.
They want you to worship their god: Global Economy.

They rule this Material World.
They hide the truth.
-------

Stay free my friends !!

Oh, goody-- another brainwashed bigot.