How much loyalty should you expect?

Do you find that your expectations of how loyal someone will be to you are either too high or too low?

I think that mine might be too high, because it sure does blow my mind how often people disappoint the hell out of me.

It depends on the person. Somepeople I expect complete loyalty, other people I don't. It's a matter of judging character.

My problem might be that I expect complete loyalty from everyone, even people I shouldn't.

It's weird how I ask a question, and then diagnose myself with a problem based on the answers I get to that question.

ouch owch yowl

I'm only so good at deciphering code talk, Espernaut. Care to elaborate? 🙂

Those were the multiple firings of my brain trying to decode your pathways of logic.

Are you saying I'm illogical? 😛

hiss, crash, ping...

(those were the multiple firings of my brain trying to decode your post)

i expect loyalty from my close friends, but i know even that itself can change, most things dont last forever.

😢

i dont think anyone likes losing their close friends, sometimes it just slowly drifts apart, but i guess thats both of their faults. But ah well, all we can do is move on.

dont worry phoenix its just your scorpio will to dominate.

No it isn't.

🙂

Actually, I'm not quite done. Why would you say that?

Well, nevermind, you're not online anymore.

For the record, I am not a dominating person. And even if I was, nobody here would be able to definitively say that, because nobody here knows how I am personally. And even if they did know me, and I was dominating, what would be so wrong with that?

And one more thing: why does it all come back to *me*, as if somehow it's my fault that other people are backstabbers, or not loyal? How is that something that can be somehow traced to my "scorpio will to dominate"?

Why aren't people responsible for themselves, why is it my doing if they are not loyal?

i was just kidding, relax.

It didn't seem like a joke to me, I didn't see any smiley faces or anything to indicate it was a joke.

Someone should define the use / the depth of the word loyalty here. This falls in line with that previous definiton of "conceit".. it depends on who's making the statement. For me, it's tell me straight, don't go behind my back with my sig. other, other friends, or family, in trying to hurt me (or help me, for that matter) if I've said "hands off". I've burned someone down for being my sounding board about a girlfriends problems, unknowning that he was also giving her advice, w/o telling me that.

Everyone wants other's opinions @ situations and "what do you think" scenario's. Everyone needs to vent. What's not right is giving back conversations "raw" to someone's boy or girlfriend out of context, and w/o the 1st party being aware. (If they knew, they wouldn't have told their friend in the first place..) In my example, I kept the guys friendship, but never spoke about my problems again. It withered away on it's own. He was ashamed and apologized, I accepted and we tried to go on, biz as normal, but we drifted apart. Now I make sure everyone knows where they stand.

i have no reason to be mean to u so of course i was kidding.

I'm sure you could find some reason to be mean to me.

🙂

Espernaut, that was a terrible story.

I mean, you wrote it well, but I'm sorry to hear of one more situation where someone is being backstabbed. I'm glad he at least apologized to you, but I'd say you're better off not having people like that in your life, even if they do feel guilty about what they've done (as t should).

I think people in general form their own ideas about everything. Loyalty is just one of several character traits that are (hopefully) instilled in us as we grow up. It may be the experiences one has in getting there.. that determine how passionately one feels about it. I've had mostly positive experiences, but have friends who're very jaded, very insulated and hard to reach. Loyalty is interwined with Trust (another person per person definition.)

I am fiercly loyal of my friends and family, yet I guess I don't expect the same in return. If they wish to be loyal then bonus to me, but hey, everyone is different. One thing I will never tolerate though is betrayal. I can accept alot of faults in friends without feeling the need to cookiemonster about them to other ppl, but I draw the line when a friends betrays me to ppl not worth a buttere. Then they are no longer friends and I move on. This has only ever happened twice (a long time ago) to me so I can't complain.

There is nothing wrong with expecting loyalty from people, afterall, what's the big deal? How hard can it be to remain steadfast in the face of adversity? It just amazes me how easy some people find it so easy to betray a confidence, sell out on a friend, or to leave the side of an aquaintence when there is a better option. You know, it really makes me mad... I was just thinking about this today and lately i have been realizing that you set your own moral standard and if people do not want to adhere to that, then that is their problem. It doesn't matter how the world is around you, as long as you are happy with yourself. Also, in my older, more mature years (huh hmm), I have begun to realise that people don't really give a sh** about anybody except themselves and that really, the only loyalty in life is to yourself. Once you have established self-loyalty, then you can extend the principle to other people. If you think being loyal is an integral part of your being, and you really feel like a 'loyal' person, then hell yeah, be loyal, and if people choose to betray you then that is their loss and once they have swum with the sharks, they will realise you weren't 'so bad' after all and will regret what they've done.

I really really understand this 'loyalty' thing because all my life I've felt like I've given my loyalty to the wrong people and as a result, being constantly disappointed. To me it wasn't a conscious decision, it was a given that if they were my friend, even if they annoyed me sometimes, I would be there for them regardless of what the 'crowd' may think.

Oh yeah, just a side note. Remember that we are only mere mortals and to expect outstanding behaviour from many of us is just lucicrous! I mean, as a species, we are not very evolved really are we?!

So in sum, be loyal to yourself first and foremost. If, upon scrutinizing someone you find them worthy of your trust, and they seem to take the good with the bad, begin to entertain the idea of loyalty. Loyalty should be something that is earned, don't go giving it away too easily young phoenix rising 😉

Oh yeah, it is definately not you, why should you take responsibility for other's shortcomings? Stop that immediately.

I should say 'stop that immediately'! With an exclaimation mark at the end 😉

depends upon the person and how u do meet. family loyal to the most. and try to keep hold of ur fridns as much as possible those that are loyal. i call all my aquatnites friends. which means i worry about them if they are sick. or something wrong with them. which is a good way to become good friends.
loyal is chosy to many extends.

Everyone here seems to think it's ok to have differant levels of loyalty according to how well you know that person...rubbish...!!!

Lawgoddes touched on an important point that is vital to realise here and that is loyalty to yourself...how often do we even do what WE say we will OURSELVES do...?

What we send out into the cosmos will come back to us...kinda like you reap what you sow...or else karma for those who believe in it...

How DARE any of us expect to recieve any more loyalty than we would grant to ANY OTHER PERSON...total stranger or not...what differance does it make how well we know others...how well do we know OURSELVES is the real issue here...—

Suggesting that our understanding of other commands the level of loyalty/respect we may have for them is none other than a rediculous cover up for our own short commings...we've all let people down even our closest and most dearest...admit it...!!!

We as humans are all the same and regardless of our religion we all have to agree we are identicle...the science of medicine tells us this...we're all the same so why then do we believe this rubbish about differant people only being worthy of loyalty and respect according to our understanding of them or our relationship with them...—

You cannot expect anything from the cosmos of life if you are not yourself truley in that state already...ie you cannot expect to have any constant level of loyalty/respect at any level other than the lowest form you give it out...

We are 99.4% the same as the monkey, but we do not hang from trees and eat bananas. we are not all alike what makes the differance is between the ears. There are people who are not worthy of respect. The dema gods who spit out there dogma would be some on and on and on.

This is my own statement to follow. There are Lions and Lambs out there. Till I know who I'm dealing with, my interaction factor Would be different. I also believe there are people in the world (in general) that aren't worthy of respect. AKA "less evolved". It is Quid Pro Quo to me.

I guess the moral of the story is that ppl get hurt and let down by others, and as Durrie suggests, that works visa versa. Yeah, we are all biologically within the same gene pool (well..lol..some of us are anyway), but it is also a biological factor that (for better or worse) we make judgements about everything...some processing area of the brain..psychologically speaking..and don't ask more cause I never really paid too much attention...lol...but apparently it is there.

I feel the focus should be on ourselves and how we determine our own boundaries. But this doesn't invalidate ourselves feeling hurt, betrayed, etc... and sometimes, in some specific situations, as Phoenix suggests, loyalty is not too much to ask for. But if, in those situations, when are friends aren't loyal to us, instead of getting angry at them (b/c those ppl have the right to live by their own boundaries also), we should (apart from obvious dissappointment) accept them for themselves warts and all and make a decision of our own as to whether that person should still remain in our lives or whether it is more healthy for us without them.

Some ppl may not feel strong enough (through no fault of their own) to stand up to others when standing up for you. You can't be too angry at ppl for not liking conflict and wanting to avoid it at all costs.

I'll have to come back to this topic later when I have more time, but I'd like to briefly step in right now to say that I'm very impressed with everyone's responses.

How is a person to learn of respect/loyalty or what ever until they are shown that phenomenon themselves first hand...? Espernaut speaks of people being less "evolved" and thus less worthy of respect but how do you see yourself as being a solution to their lack of understanding by choosing yourself not to grant show them what you SAY you have and they don't...please...that is the cause...how...how in any way can you see that as being a course of positive and respectful acition...?

As sure as water is wet we have all disrespected others in this life and if we think a decent and "respectful" reason for that is because we say others do it to us then we are nothing but pathetic, sour, cry baby hipocrites...!!!

Some people say you have to earn respect...Ha. What rubbish is that...mutual respect is a birth right to us all as humans beings born of flesh and blood into the same world and yeah maybe not of equal opertunity but of equally powerful potential through realisation of what we essentially are deep down...

My take on this. "We" are not living in a vacuum here. From childhood, I've learned the acceptable mores & values of the culture I grew up in. As did my peers. I don't have to take a survey to realize alot of people were treated shabbily growing up, and learned to respect and value their own and others opinions. But in fact, a few did not learn the lesson. Quite the contrary, they went the other way.. deceit for gain, theft for gain, etc. We are not speaking of infants. A child's behavior I can understand, and accomodate for. An adult's antisocial behavior is not the same thing. Each of these persons I've met has had literally Thousands of daily interactions with others before me. The majority of those I do met are very similiar to me, I can see it in their eyes, feel it in their handshake, and hear it in the warmth of their voice.. I leave the interaction a better person for it. I can tell, they've got the message before me. And vice versa.
It's called "mutual respect". And yes, it should be a birth right. But in actuality, we're not all on the same ticket. Who do you suppose is the (adult) party defaulting on this birth-given right? Those lesser evolved that I mentioned. They're aware, they do reason, they're logical, intelligient people. They chose to pursue their own goals & interests without concern for your own privacy, your rights, your "space", call it what you will. Perhaps this thread is shifting from loyalty to rights, freedom, or respect. But in any event, to say others aren't accountable for their actions, not responsible for their behavior (learned or no) is unrealistic. Again, quid pro quo.

Well put espernaut I respect you opine.

I agree Espernaut...I agree with all of your most recent post but how and why do you say before that there are people unworthy of respect...how does that help them?...how does that teach them anything else but more resentment...?

It's exactly as you say...quid pro quo...you get no respect from those people because you yourself show them no respect and to expect anything else would surley be hypocritical.

This ties nicely in with the the post the other day about how people say the truth hurts...I say rubbish to that. How can the truth ever be anything but the truth and what sense is there in believing the truth can hurt or be bad...that is reverse logic...that suggests people would rather lie...what good does that do...—

The truth does not hurt...the truth is the most liberating and non restrictive thing there is...evading the truth is what hurts because you will be found out and you will feel ashamed of that indecency...it's natures way and then it's as I said...we then realise it's the ego that hurts through being found out not the truth...!!!

We only disrespect people when we are self absorbed and put ourselves before others in an attempt for self gain through the will of our ego being greater at the time of our concious because being disrespectful is a concious decision...we all know when we are doing it...it is a choice in life just like anything else...it's as you say above Espernaut...

..."They chose to pursue their own goals & interests without concern for your own privacy, your rights, your "space"...

ie...Gratification of our ego nothing less...

You say you've read and understood my post, then contradict yourself in remainder of your first sentence.

The truth is, "Truth" is subjective. User defined.

You have your version, and I have mine. If you're unaware of there Being more than one perspective, than your own, then we have no common ground here, and nothing further to share between us.

I'm not going back into circular arguement here. Nor am I going to deal with semantics. Suffice to say, you and I approach life at very different angles.

*read espernauts second last post*

well said *claps*

You want to know about respect, go up london some night with a lady friend. Take her up behind Soho, Tell the young men you run into that you respect them. as they take your money, cut you up a little and treetrunk your lady friend just keep telling them that you respect them, it will all come out alright.

Sometimes Durrie 'the truth' does hurt, and at the same time can be liberating...or not. On this concept (and maybe I have missed the point here...is it a 'specific' truth we are talking about here? Or just any truth in general?)

If it is the latter, then you need to think a little broader afield than what you seem to be thinking (different perspective). There are some truths, one of which I have experienced recently...a totally unexpected truth which needed to be told..that was devestating and in no way liberating to me at all.

I agree we approach life differantly Espernaut...this is very evident to us both through our shareing here. Do you always approaching life at an angle...because I do not...if so how is a person to ever learn to respect you if you always have an angle...ie. your course is always changing...?

I prefere to walk a straight line through life...that doesn't mean I do not like to stop and smell the roses, or appreciate things, sit back sometimes relax and laugh because these are the things that teach us in life...

Maybe that's why you seem to be able to find some sense and logic in thinking there can be "versions" of the truth...that notion flabergausts me...actually no, it explains a lot to me...

It's denial that's what it is...denial dressed up in in westernised "logic" to make "subjective" sense to our ever thirsty ego's.

We are so spoilt for choice in the western world today that we automatically demand 100 varietys and 50 flavours of everything or we're not happy...we almost feel we're entitled to them and sure if we can make them maybe we are but at what cost...that we forget to see things for what they essentially are...?

This has lulled us through OUR OWN WILL into a false sense of what things are...you cannot make the Truth and more true or un-true than what it is Espernaut...versions...no.

That should say...

you cannot make the truth ANY more true or un-true than what it is...

i respect espernaut, just because he is human and the same equal person as i(i mean as in flesh and bones and that we are basically living in the same world but as far as personality and growing up, we are probably not in the same background, so that means: we are not exactly the same person), isnt that part of what you're trying to teach here?

true loyalty isnt suppose to be earned, actually more like SHOULDNT. It seems like theres two different types of truth's here, the kind where in ones mind, we are all human so we all deserve to have loyalty from another, and theres the other truth where the world has different views on things, some dont even really care for loyalty. But i think you know that once we are born, we are born here alone and die here alone. People change, people 'grow' into their own person, people start having different ideas and thus loyalty is also seperated. People have choices, which leads to actions, which leads to different situations, some people choose to trust, some people choose to not care and go on their own path, some people dont really give a damn about other peoples feelings because of their OWN definition of how they should live, call it life experiences, but it seems more like a choice to me. And if people choose to not show loyalty(which means no care for the person, to go on their own path which only they will seek for themselves then i will stay out of their way because i also have a life of my own but that doesnt mean i will not expect loyalty from my close friends, but they too are their own person and they might start closing up just because of their own personal experiences.) really durrie, i respect your opinions but its not that simple. I think people acknowledge what the truth means, but that doesnt mean theres a specific way of living just because you're aware of what the truth is. But this is only my take on things and it might change dramatically tomorrow, today, etc, thats how life is sometimes, yeah? so yesh ^^ adieu adieu

hmmm, soon as you're born, you live and learn, things happen, you get "betrayed" by someone(their own reason) and you grow from that, so the fact that the incident happened, isnt that much of a truth of reality as it is? isnt that how you learn what loyalty is? but some people choose to not want to deal with getting personal with anyone even after that experience, since they feel better off alone. Life is so confusing sometimes, but i dont think there is a specific way of living life, because i dont think anyone has the definition to what the meaning of living is either since i see that everyone has even a different perspective of what loyalty should be and how it should be used and thought of. Anyway, im tired as hell, its 5 in the morning and i keep not getting enough sleep, my fault, night all

No Luz...look I've explained this before on a thread...I am NOT teaching / preaching or anything less than shareing with you what makes sense to me through my experiance and understanding of life...that's all.

People see me as a self absorbed, self absorbed, self elevated type of person and that doesn't bother me because I don't expect them to understand me nor do I believe they have to...nor should I have to make exuses for believing firmly in what and who I am. Quite often I don't explain as well as I should but then my views have always been hard for most to swallow on this board anyway...and the more I try the further I seem to slip down in peoples opinion...?

I am here to learn from interaction and shareing with others and when you are willing to see life that way...we will see that there is a lesson to every single moment of life...

Luv and Light to all...and always...
Durrie.

What learning can I take from these post? What have I gotten from the sharing? How do I see life now,Is the view different from before? result: I now see that half the people I know are below average.

its all butter when it comes down to it.

That was a good post Luz. You expressed the differences between family, and strangers, from an individual stand point, and somehow I'd glossed over that aspect.

The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread.

Espernaut, actually I think durrie is just trying to get your take on it all a little further..(correct durrie?) It's not a drill or a test of some sort.. It seems that durrie wishes to know your reasoning behind some of your conclusions. Sometimes I ask people their reasoning all the time to find out how much more/less I need to re-examine stuff. If my reasoning matches with someone else's, I actually get some level of comfort from knowing that someone else is thinking just like me.. Call weird/ crazy/ insane..but it's true!! so please come back and talk about it further..we will all benefit from the wisdom that you can give..

Luz, for a minute there, I actually thought that you and durrie were on the same point but from really different sides.. hmm.. would like to read more..😛 and sorry for the late post Espernaut..