WaterCup
@WaterCup
14 Years10,000+ Posts
Comments: 712 · Posts: 13125 · Topics: 157
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Posted by TheMoodyVulcan
I think that that's exactly why air signs have such reputations. Being logical enough to give both sides of any story a fair listen. Trying to explain logic to someone who is more emotionally motivated is like trying to pry your own teeth out. It goes against their core nature, and as such when they pour out their heart to an air sign only to find that the said air sign is also listening to someone else's point of view, they can feel slighted and even betrayed.
Exactly. But I still really dont get why people view this as a negative thing thou. What is the other way of seeing the bigger picture if you dont look at all directions?
Posted by ninjafish
Well there are always two + sides to a story, multiple perspectives to everything. Gemini in particular can chop and change a lot, viewing things passionately from one angle one moment, only to change that to another in the next. Libra may have the tendency to take on the underrepresented side to balance the scales, while aqua sometimes likes to thrown an outrageous perspective into the mix to shake things up a bit.
aquas actually understand & get the reasons behind to opposing sides. Example. I dont vote, but I'll encourage you to go vote if you feel its the right thing to do because voting lets us put the people we like in power etc, I still wont vote thou because I think people in powerful positions have a tendency to use and abuse their power.
I think it's got a lot to do with them being polite and apparently friendly to people they don't actually like. Makes them good prostitutes (just saying!) Carrie Fisher (Libra) once said something like "sometimes you have to be nice to people you basically wouldn't want to piss on if they were on fire".
Posted by WaterCup
Aquarians get the hypocrite title a lot, Librans are labelled wishy-washy and Geminis are forever stamped with being twofaced.
Well, they're true, aren't they? All signs have negative traits.
They're usually the most interesting traits as well.
Posted by DazedScorp
I'm not sure how hypocrisy or being twofaced is related to being logical and having the ability to see both sides?
Posted by WynterPosted by WaterCup
Aquarians get the hypocrite title a lot, Librans are labelled wishy-washy and Geminis are forever stamped with being twofaced.
Well, they're true, aren't they? All signs have negative traits.
They're usually the most interesting traits as well.click to expand
i dont disagree with that but there are reasons behind the so called hypocrisy. Aquas have bad traits just like any other sign but hypocrisy isnt one of them.
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
Posted by andsPosted by WaterCupPosted by WynterPosted by WaterCup
Aquarians get the hypocrite title a lot, Librans are labelled wishy-washy and Geminis are forever stamped with being twofaced.
Well, they're true, aren't they? All signs have negative traits.
They're usually the most interesting traits as well.
i dont disagree with that but there are reasons behind the so called hypocrisy. Aquas have bad traits just like any other sign but hypocrisy isnt one of them.
i feel aquas can act in the greater interest for all but can be blind to their own biases and self interest. I.e. An aqua protesting for equal income but because their neighbor has a flatscreen and he doesnt. Its like hes accusing bankers of being selfish but is blind to his own.click to expand
i dont really get your post. Someone who protests for equal income just because someone else has better things than them is not an aqua trait or what fuels an aqua to take action. That sounds like jealousy to me & thats a trait found in some humans, aqua or not. An aqua would protest for equal income if he thought other people got more money for doing the same job. Give me more examples
Posted by andsPosted by WaterCup
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
Sound judgment is brought about by wisdom. The ability to see the consequences of ones action.
U can see opposing views but u dont need to. A defendant will put forth and argument and a judge will see if his argument is valid. U dont have to analyze both and multitask.click to expand
but we do see opposing views, its not a choice...it happens that way whether we like it or not. Maybe its easier for others to just NOT SEE, but it doesnt work like that with air signs, both sides need to be understood before making a personal decision.
Posted by DazedScorp
Okay... I'mma try to find a way to explain this.
Take your Judge for example.
They make a decision on whether the defendent is guilty or not, based on logic and knowledge of the law. They see both sides of the coin, and come to the best conclusion they can based on the laws they uphold. This is the Judge being Logical.
If the Judge, after covicting the defendent of murder, rape, theft... whatever, was to go out and do those same things (the things they swore to protect against), they would be a hypocrite or two faced.
Does that make sense?
yeah it makes sense but the example is too extreme for what I'm trying to say here.
Lets take abortion for example, I may be against it but I'll still understand why people do it. And if i were to say that infront of other anti-abortion campaigners, they would see me as being some kind of a phony etc. Another example, lets say we are campaigning outside an abortion clinic and I happen to talk to one of the girls who is about to get an abortion. She tells me that she needs to go study or whatever and the pregnancy would interfere with that etc, meaning carrying full term & give it up for adoption is not a possibility...if it her story is understandable then I wont judge her for her actions even thou I still dont believe in the act itself. I dont know if you get me.
Posted by andsPosted by WaterCupPosted by andsPosted by WaterCup
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
Sound judgment is brought about by wisdom. The ability to see the consequences of ones action.
U can see opposing views but u dont need to. A defendant will put forth and argument and a judge will see if his argument is valid. U dont have to analyze both and multitask.
but we do see opposing views, its not a choice...it happens that way whether we like it or not. Maybe its easier for others to just NOT SEE, but it doesnt work like that with air signs, both sides need to be understood before making a personal decision.
im sure its not just an air sign trait as well tho some signs can be close minded.click to expand
but I'm talking as an air sign & have no idea how others go about it. And by other signs being more narrow minded than others, do you have taurus in mind? 😛
Posted by DazedScorpPosted by WaterCup
yeah it makes sense but the example is too extreme for what I'm trying to say here.
Lets take abortion for example, I may be against it but I'll still understand why people do it. And if i were to say that infront of other anti-abortion campaigners, they would see me as being some kind of a phony etc. Another example, lets say we are campaigning outside an abortion clinic and I happen to talk to one of the girls who is about to get an abortion. She tells me that she needs to go study or whatever and the pregnancy would interfere with that etc, meaning carrying full term & give it up for adoption is not a possibility...if it her story is understandable then I wont judge her for her actions even thou I still dont believe in the act itself. I dont know if you get me.
That's fine, because your actions still match up with your ideas or beliefs.
For you to get an abortion would be hypocrisy... since you are the one who's against it.click to expand
but isnt agreeing with what you stand against seen as some kind of hypocrisy by many?
Personally I would do it too if I were raped & got pregnant as I wouldnt want a reminder of the ordeal for the next 9 months. See the 'hypocrisy'?😛 Abortion is wrong but other situations make it a right choice...its still wrong thou even if the reasons are right. Does that make sense to you? It does to me.
Posted by ands
Hey ima taurus! My feelings r hurt now. Lol jk! Going to eat merienda (afternoon snack) now tho cya WC!
i knew you were a taurus😛 Sure enjoy your snacks, ands. Btw why do you guys always seem to be eating all the time? If you arent actually eating, you talk about eating or food in general
Posted by Crustacea
Air signs are NOT ruled by logic. Some of these definitions of signs should be re-written.
I have never met a non-emotional Gemini, Aquarius and especially a damn Libra - they're always reacting on their feelings.
Earth signs are what I would call logical.
here is your chance to 'rewrite', do just that. What do you think they are ruled by if not logic? And why do you think logic is more suitable for earth and not air?
Posted by ninjafish
Air without any water scares me
I agree!
Many politicians have dominant air and dominant FIRE (fire for the will power, and dominant will to be a courageous ass) and the air to fight like a hurricane and be oblivious to other people's feelings. If you're gonna be a politician, they are going to hurt people because they want to win. You don't see them volunteering work to help out old folks or taking care of babies.
Posted by DazedScorp
@Watercup...
I understand that you're an air sign, but you do have a large amount of water in your chart. For me, I believe that one thing air dominant charts lack (especially air moons), is the ability to empathize with others. With you having that ability (large amounts of water), maybe it helps to sway your beliefs just a tad.
That's not a bad thing of course. It just helps you see that the world just can't be a simple black and white. That certain situations need to be handled a bit differently. Such as your case, a pregnancy by way of rape would lead to an abortion. And since that is your belief, and if you did that... you still wouldn't be a hypocrite.
Who knows really.
I will say this though, that if your beliefs on abortion include having the option in that extreme situation... then that's what you should advocate. Not just to rid of it completely, because you may wind up in that situation some day (Let's hope not of course), and then you're stuck.
Just remember, that when you preach your beliefs, be sure to stand by them and follow them. If not, consider yourself a hypocrite. Unless your actions fail to match your beliefs, I won't consider you a hypocrite.
the abortion thing was just an example, I have no solid opinion on abortion as im a live & let live kind of person. At the same time if I were to be force to choose a side on abortion, I would say its wrong because its similar to murder but I still wont be completely against it as there are things that can make it an only option ie. pregnancy as a result of rape & serious medical conditions that may make it impossible for the pregnancy to be carried out full term. These 2 are the only reasons that may make me agree with abortion.
Regarding being water dominant doesnt actually make me empathetic at all. I still need to understand before I can actually 'feel' for another person. A person can tell me all the sob stories in the world, but if I dont get it then I wont be feeling sorry for them. Understanding comes before feeling with me.
Posted by andsPosted by WaterCupPosted by andsPosted by WaterCup
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
Sound judgment is brought about by wisdom. The ability to see the consequences of ones action.
U can see opposing views but u dont need to. A defendant will put forth and argument and a judge will see if his argument is valid. U dont have to analyze both and multitask.
but we do see opposing views, its not a choice...it happens that way whether we like it or not. Maybe its easier for others to just NOT SEE, but it doesnt work like that with air signs, both sides need to be understood before making a personal decision.
im sure its not just an air sign trait as well tho some signs can be close minded.click to expand
I tend to agree with this....
as per usual, WC is inciting negativity and tumultousness to "air" sign placements. There's ALOT of people on this site with air dominant and many more air moons too. It's inciting towards those who have double air and dominant air.
Posted by BalmyTigressPosted by virgodog58
I think it's got a lot to do with them being polite and apparently friendly to people they don't actually like. Makes them good prostitutes (just saying!) Carrie Fisher (Libra) once said something like "sometimes you have to be nice to people you basically wouldn't want to piss on if they were on fire".
I think this would be the reason.
I can listen to a person explain how someone is horrible and nod and agree and the next moment be chatty with the person I just agreed can be horrible. Though that depends of the degree of horribleness. I have taken a stand for people I've considered to be my friends and "pledged allegiance" and cut out someone else (I don't know how much of that is the Leo and Aries in me). When I do that, I stand firmly behind my decision. Though I've noticed that other people do not do the same for me, so I'm not sure who's the freaking wishy washy person in this scenario :-)
By the way, pretty avatar, virgodog58 :-)click to expand
i do the nodding thing too & my reason is that, just because someone did a horrible thing to a friend of mine doesnt mean that i should also involve myself in their situation by turning against the said person without a valid personal reason of my own. Its their business between themselves & has nothing to do with me. What they did may be terrible indeed towards my friend and not me, thats why I would nod, but continue speaking to the 'enemy'
What a little problem to think too much about! Well, how about "just avoid" doing it? No one can ever stop what other people think of you unless you change yourself and live for the better. Accepting something is the beginning of one's improvement. It is hard... but the truth will set you free...
Personally IMO, I haven't really met any air sign that's just like that... Or maybe because I don't bother...
Personally IMO, I haven't really met any air sign that's just like that... Or maybe because I don't bother...
Posted by lisabethur8Posted by andsPosted by WaterCupPosted by andsPosted by WaterCup
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
Sound judgment is brought about by wisdom. The ability to see the consequences of ones action.
U can see opposing views but u dont need to. A defendant will put forth and argument and a judge will see if his argument is valid. U dont have to analyze both and multitask.
but we do see opposing views, its not a choice...it happens that way whether we like it or not. Maybe its easier for others to just NOT SEE, but it doesnt work like that with air signs, both sides need to be understood before making a personal decision.
im sure its not just an air sign trait as well tho some signs can be close minded.
I tend to agree with this....
as per usual, WC is inciting negativity and tumultousness to "air" sign placements. There's ALOT of people on this site with air dominant and many more air moons too. It's inciting towards those who have double air and dominant air.click to expand
lets get one thing straight first and that is, I dont care what you think. Instead of disagreeing with me then why arent you coming up with the reasons why you think what im saying is wrong. I can take naysayers, what I cant take is naysayers who just nay without giving reasons to why they are naying. And 2ndly, when did I put air signs in a bad light? I discuss whatever I wanna discuss and those who agree are free to agree and those who dont are also free to say why they disagree. I didnt force anybody to read or reply and if you dont like the things i say then do yourself a favour and dont read what i write and keep it moving. I told you before that i find you annoying with all your disagreements without stating your case, but now im starting to dislike you because you continue to do it. I'm not here representing you, I'm representing myself as an air sign, be it dark or light & you are welcome
you are welcomed to say your own views the way you see them yourself. I'm still an air sign and I'll state my views as an air sign whether you like it or not
Tbh, you are one of the people who make me wish it was possible to post a slap across the face cause you annoy me.
State your own views or leave my own alone, capisce? 🙂
Tbh, you are one of the people who make me wish it was possible to post a slap across the face cause you annoy me.
State your own views or leave my own alone, capisce? 🙂
well you don't seem to have any FEELINGS for people on this site who have dominant air and chalk it up to them being the most terrible unfeeling. You incite people to feel PARANOIA against any air placements and you generalize it to have them be hypocritical, when you know very well that hypocrisy is, for example: PREACHING something like do not smoke and then you smoke yourself, or telling others to go ahead and get an abortion when you are against it yourself.
Posted by firebunny
What a little problem to think too much about! Well, how about "just avoid" doing it? No one can ever stop what other people think of you unless you change yourself and live for the better. Accepting something is the beginning of one's improvement. It is hard... but the truth will set you free...
Personally IMO, I haven't really met any air sign that's just like that... Or maybe because I don't bother...
its just a discussion and nothing serious. You havent met an air sign thats just like what? I'm curious
Posted by DazedScorpPosted by WaterCup
Regarding being water dominant doesnt actually make me empathetic at all. I still need to understand before I can actually 'feel' for another person. A person can tell me all the sob stories in the world, but if I dont get it then I wont be feeling sorry for them. Understanding comes before feeling with me.
To understand one's situation is to empathize with them.click to expand
okay
Posted by lisabethur8
well you don't seem to have any FEELINGS for people on this site who have dominant air and chalk it up to them being the most terrible unfeeling. You incite people to feel PARANOIA against any air placements and you generalize it to have them be hypocritical, when you know very well that hypocrisy is, for example: PREACHING something like do not smoke and then you smoke yourself, or telling others to go ahead and get an abortion when you are against it yourself.
and how am i responsible for how people feel? What they feel is up to them & they are free to state otherwise, but my own views will still stand regardless. air doesnt blow in one direction alone & there are those who will agree with the direction my air blows and those who will agree with another direction but that will only happen if people speak up instead of disagreeing all the time without valid reasons.
Posted by harry99Posted by WaterCup
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
hence why Libras make the best judges cuz they can do that and oh yeah be nice to people they wouldn't piss
on if they were on fire........that's just crazy. But hey we need all the different aspects of life to be represented
so there you have it.click to expand
Judge Judy is a Libra with Five planet stellium in Libra in the 7th house! a 5x whammy with extra 7th house oomph.
but she's not that nice though. Lol. 7th house is supposed to be relationships. Oh yeahhhh she has relationships allright....with everyone and slamming the anvil down.
Posted by harry99Posted by WaterCup
Isnt logic = reasoning or sound judgment? Now how can you make sound judgment or reason without seeing opposing views? And seeing opposing views is what get people stamped with being twofaced etc.
hence why Libras make the best judges cuz they can do that and oh yeah be nice to people they wouldn't piss
on if they were on fire........that's just crazy. But hey we need all the different aspects of life to be represented
so there you have it.click to expand
thanks for getting what im trying to say. Do you believe what you just described about (some) librans make them seem twofaced or hypocritical?
Posted by WaterCupPosted by firebunny
What a little problem to think too much about! Well, how about "just avoid" doing it? No one can ever stop what other people think of you unless you change yourself and live for the better. Accepting something is the beginning of one's improvement. It is hard... but the truth will set you free...
Personally IMO, I haven't really met any air sign that's just like that... Or maybe because I don't bother...
its just a discussion and nothing serious. You havent met an air sign thats just like what? I'm curiousclick to expand
that's hypocritical or two-faced, refer to your first post... to be honest... and that's coming from a virgo. 😉
Posted by CrustaceaPosted by
WaterCupPosted by Crustacea
Air signs are NOT ruled by logic. Some of these definitions of signs should be re-written.
I have never met a non-emotional Gemini, Aquarius and especially a damn Libra - they're always reacting on their feelings.
Earth signs are what I would call logical.
here is your chance to 'rewrite', do just that. What do you think they are ruled by if not logic? And why do you think logic is more suitable for earth and not air?
i can assure you that there are no hurt feelings on my part & the post to you wasnt meant to be snarky, just an innocent question cause it got me curious. Your reaction from it got a 'lmao ' out of me too, so at least we made each other laugh today..thanks 🙂
LOL. See that's petty. Your feelings hurt?
You just proved my point. You want to take a random jab at a word I wrote as if you just wrote verbatim to some grammar rules & usage handbook? lmfaooooclick to expand
Posted by CrustaceaPosted by
WaterCupPosted by Crustacea
Air signs are NOT ruled by logic. Some of these definitions of signs should be re-written.
I have never met a non-emotional Gemini, Aquarius and especially a damn Libra - they're always reacting on their feelings.
Earth signs are what I would call logical.
here is your chance to 'rewrite', do just that. What do you think they are ruled by if not logic? And why do you think logic is more suitable for earth and not air?
i can assure you that there are no hurt feelings on my part & the post to you wasnt meant to be snarky, just an innocent question cause it got me curious. Your reaction from it got a 'lmao ' out of me too, so at least we made each other laugh today..thanks 🙂
LOL. See that's petty. Your feelings hurt?
You just proved my point. You want to take a random jab at a word I wrote as if you just wrote verbatim to some grammar rules & usage handbook? lmfaooooclick to expand
Posted by Crustacea
And if you don't care about the repliers are thinking why make a topic asking for their answers?
wtf!? LOL I'm too through.
tears...
omggg I haven't laughed this hard in a minute....
and who said i didnt care what repliers say? It surely wasnt me. I honestly dont get your attitude cause I asked you why you thought air werent ruled by logic? Its a question, which means im curious aka I want to hear views, your views as the poster of that statemen. Now how does that equate to not caring what people have to say? Stop making me 'rotflmao', I'm at work. 😄
Posted by Crustacea
Oh no no no don't try to back track now because you're just giving yourself away.
I never said it was snarky or even meant it in that way at all. I said petty as in a trival point to react on out of everything I typed.
Don't try to project on me.
you are the one projecting here and not me. Just curious, why did you think my reply to you was petty? I'm just not getting it cause unless you thought i was being snarky or whatever, i just dont see whats petty about it.
Posted by firebunnyPosted by WaterCupPosted by firebunny
What a little problem to think too much about! Well, how about "just avoid" doing it? No one can ever stop what other people think of you unless you change yourself and live for the better. Accepting something is the beginning of one's improvement. It is hard... but the truth will set you free...
Personally IMO, I haven't really met any air sign that's just like that... Or maybe because I don't bother...
its just a discussion and nothing serious. You havent met an air sign thats just like what? I'm curious
that's hypocritical or two-faced, refer to your first post... to be honest... and that's coming from a virgo. 😉
click to expand
oh ok. But it seems to be a thing people accuse air signs of. There was a thread about it on elsa and the linda goodman site about how the dual nature of air signs can make them appear two faced. I brought it here to hear what others thought of it. Thanks for the reply 🙂
Posted by Crustacea
And if you don't care about the repliers are thinking why make a topic asking for their answers?
^^^ 'tis what Aquas do 😉
And, if you don't agree with them, then you're flat out wrong!
Posted by WaterCup
do people always accuse air signs of hypocrisy or being twofaced?
The same reason why people say Scorpios are manipulative scary mofos, Taureans are lazy and indolent and Leos are all arrogant pricks. In general, people dosn't take astrology that seriously and they don't care to dig deeper. They don't really try to understand astrology. So those "accusations" are not to be taken to heart.
*don't take...
Posted by lildolPosted by Crustacea
And if you don't care about the repliers are thinking why make a topic asking for their answers?
^^^ 'tis what Aquas do 😉
And, if you don't agree with them, then you're flat out wrong!click to expand
show me where i said i dont care and i'll show you a chicken's teeth. I repeat, I NEVER SAID I DONT CARE, except when i replied to lisa & quoting her too while at it. Why would i ask so many 'whys' if i didnt care or wanna hear.
Posted by BlueSandCacoonPosted by WaterCup
do people always accuse air signs of hypocrisy or being twofaced?
The same reason why people say Scorpios are manipulative scary mofos, Taureans are lazy and indolent and Leos are all arrogant pricks. In general, people dosn't take astrology that seriously and they don't care to dig deeper. They don't really try to understand astrology. So those "accusations" are not to be taken to heart.click to expand
like i mentioned it was just a simple discussion about astrology since we are in an astrology site and a place where all things astrology are discussed. I just wanted to hear views thats all, its not like this question keeps me awake at night.
Posted by Gandalf
Air benders! I want to be an air bender.
i'll do a mouth to mouth on you, that'll give you air, but I cant make you an air sign, G...sorry😛
Posted by SutekhPosted by WaterCup
do people always accuse air signs of hypocrisy or being twofaced?
Aquarians get the hypocrite title a lot, Librans are labelled wishy-washy and Geminis are forever stamped with being twofaced.
Air signs are mostly driven by logic than anything else. Have you ever watched those court shows on tv? The judge ALWAYS listens to both the plaintiff and the defendant before making any kind of judgment, its the only logical thing to do. And WE are logical creatures, so you cant expect us not to play both sides of any given situation, we are trying to feel both sides to come up with an unbiased final word.
Geminis are two faced, but its not like they aim to harm people theyre just running their mouths, Libras wishy washy, Aquas dont like to ruffle feathers.
But the logic you speak of is there along with the hypocrisy, theyre both there.
To give you an example, my Libra asc, huge part of my personality. People that are close to me will get angry or think im being disloyal if I got my Libra asc cap on and say. " why would you do that to them though, do they really deserve it, let's put this in perspective here was there malicious intent?" Theyll be mad like why the F are you not on my side.
But with air signs Ive always got information back from someone else, information that I only told the air sign, and they repeated it to other parties. It's just hte nature of air. It flows freely , changes directions many times.click to expand
thank you sutekh and that makes sense and the 'air changes direction' thing is true, but like you say..its not meant to be twofaced, its just a nature of being 'everywhere'- just like air.
Posted by PotHeadVirgo22Posted by WaterCupPosted by PotHeadVirgo22
Hey Watercup.
how are you doing?
I'm doosin fine. Hi's about yourself?click to expand
what have you been up to? Its been a while. I hope you havent been shacked up with a new boyfriend in some jail cell, drawing hearts on the wall 'phv 4 hooddaddy 4 eva'😛
Posted by feb16aqua
It's the wishy washyness of our energies
you dont say! You? wishy washy? I dont believe it! How are you, doll? 🙂
Posted by Gandalf
This guy is my favorite Air sign !
are you ok? Is there something that causes hallucinations in that pipe of yours?😛
Posted by Gandalf
what? I think he is funny as hell!
Alex Jones on Astrotheme: 63% air. with a libra moon. He's surely not being charming there is he?
Gandalf's been smoking the peace pipe.
Sorry but I cant see anything, im on my phone. I thought you were hallucinating LOL..forgive me
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Okay. Mr. Aqua knows I've been studying and learning astrology. When I pulled our compatibility report, it was very good
Aquarians get the hypocrite title a lot, Librans are labelled wishy-washy and Geminis are forever stamped with being twofaced.
Air signs are mostly driven by logic than anything else. Have you ever watched those court shows on tv? The judge ALWAYS listens to both the plaintiff and the defendant before making any kind of judgment, its the only logical thing to do. And WE are logical creatures, so you cant expect us not to play both sides of any given situation, we are trying to feel both sides to come up with an unbiased final word.