enfant_terrible
@enfant_terrible
17 Years10,000+ PostsLeo
Comments: 1470 · Posts: 13777 · Topics: 204
Scientific support of astrological claims? Anyone?
Astrology is not necessarily a belief, but more of a sociological presence. If you look at it this way, then it is somewhat a science. One thing I know is that God made the stars, and they are probably there for a reference. Astrology is never the be all end all science for much, but more the likely tendencies of people's influences based on their birth date and location. I've noticed when people dwell too deep into astrology that they use it as an excuse to project their astrological signs more.
There is some math involved but there is actually very little science. It's more the study of people - sociology.
There is some math involved but there is actually very little science. It's more the study of people - sociology.
most scientific studies of astrology that i've seen only provide evidence of its inaccuracy. sorry to disappoint.
Posted by Pandybear
its a cult!!!!! they have us bashing and hating some, and loving others and basing those pre determined judgements by the date you happened to be birthed...
DXP science? 😛
Posted by trifles light as air*
most scientific studies of astrology that i've seen only provide evidence of its inaccuracy. sorry to disappoint.
Where? I've never once seen it disprove accuracy.
Posted by Pandybear
its a cult!!!!! they have us bashing and hating some, and loving others and basing those pre determined judgements by the date you happened to be birthed...
No it's not. It only becomes a cult when you look at it as a belief system.
Posted by TeflonDonPosted by trifles light as air*
most scientific studies of astrology that i've seen only provide evidence of its inaccuracy. sorry to disappoint.
Where? I've never once seen it disprove accuracy.click to expand
i didn't include the word disprove. i said provide evidence. most of the studies i've seen provide evidence that astrology is inaccurate. for instance, one study i read showed that there was no correlation between someone's birthdate and their level of extroversion. according to sun signs, people born between this time and that time should theoretically be more extroverted than people born at other times. i realize that "there is more to astrology than sun signs", yes, but the sun sign is supposed to represent someone's core being. therefore if the concept of the sun sign can be called accurate there should be some evidence that extroversion differs based on date of birth. also the study's sample was very large. i can't remember the exact number and i don't have the ambition to find the link to the study atm.
ironically i was trying to find something that supported astrology. anyway, i'm not saying whether astrology is accurate or not. i'm just saying that the scientific studies i've seen regarding it have shown evidence that it is inaccurate.
also, enfant, astrology is a pseudoscience. it is not a science, nor will it ever be. can you accept this? =)
don't you think it's possible that there are some things in life that simply can't be fully understood or explained?
don't you think it's possible that there are some things in life that simply can't be fully understood or explained?
I once read a commentary by someone, whose name unfortunately I can't remember. However, I do recall his argument.
The argument was:
There have been a lot of people through history who have had a lot of faith in astrology. These were some of the most intelligent human beings to have ever lived. They were as smart as we are, they had as much insight was we have, they had the same critical thinking capabilities that we have. And, as I say, they thought astrology was on target.
So, how and why could this be? The idea that the "Planets" were determining my characteristics is pretty unlikely. But, patterns can be seen, and people swear they have been seeing them for a long, long time. What is going on?
The first response was what about nutrition. More specifically, your mother's nutrition while she was carrying you and nursing you. We know about things like low vitamin B levels are associated with spina bifida. We know about fetal alcohol syndrome. We have absolute proof that what you mother has in her diet before you are born impacts you through your entire life.
Well, gee, was the response, in our contemporary world, foods from around the world are on my dinner table each and every day. A responsible women will not be deficit in any nutritional factor. As such, any differences based strictly on a dietary argument could no longer be valid.
Maybe so, came the rebuttal, but what about relative exposure to the sun? How about relative ambient temperatures? What about a subtle interplay between many such factors that are dictated by the season?
As a side bar this person also argued that for a long time it was stated that Southern Europeans had "Hot Blood," whilst Northern European's were less so. This person's thought was what were they drinking, because if you drank the water you died of a water borne disease. In Northern Europe beer was the beverage of choice. Indeed, in such places as England they have "small beer," 3.2 beer to us here in the Colonies. In southern Europe, wine is much more prevalent. Wine will have at least twice the alcohol content of 3.2 beer, which leads us back to fetal alcohol syndrome.
The argument was:
There have been a lot of people through history who have had a lot of faith in astrology. These were some of the most intelligent human beings to have ever lived. They were as smart as we are, they had as much insight was we have, they had the same critical thinking capabilities that we have. And, as I say, they thought astrology was on target.
So, how and why could this be? The idea that the "Planets" were determining my characteristics is pretty unlikely. But, patterns can be seen, and people swear they have been seeing them for a long, long time. What is going on?
The first response was what about nutrition. More specifically, your mother's nutrition while she was carrying you and nursing you. We know about things like low vitamin B levels are associated with spina bifida. We know about fetal alcohol syndrome. We have absolute proof that what you mother has in her diet before you are born impacts you through your entire life.
Well, gee, was the response, in our contemporary world, foods from around the world are on my dinner table each and every day. A responsible women will not be deficit in any nutritional factor. As such, any differences based strictly on a dietary argument could no longer be valid.
Maybe so, came the rebuttal, but what about relative exposure to the sun? How about relative ambient temperatures? What about a subtle interplay between many such factors that are dictated by the season?
As a side bar this person also argued that for a long time it was stated that Southern Europeans had "Hot Blood," whilst Northern European's were less so. This person's thought was what were they drinking, because if you drank the water you died of a water borne disease. In Northern Europe beer was the beverage of choice. Indeed, in such places as England they have "small beer," 3.2 beer to us here in the Colonies. In southern Europe, wine is much more prevalent. Wine will have at least twice the alcohol content of 3.2 beer, which leads us back to fetal alcohol syndrome.
I was pretty skeptical of astrology for most of my life, but I had trouble denying what I was observing. There are some general characteristics that seem to be associated with the time of the year of your birth. When I read this bit of debate, I was much more intrigued by the whole issue. There may actually be a valid reason/reasons to explain what I see pretty much everyday of my life
Posted by trifles light as air*
also, enfant, astrology is a pseudoscience. it is not a science, nor will it ever be. can you accept this? =)
don't you think it's possible that there are some things in life that simply can't be fully understood or explained?
Yes of course. That's called faith. But mine belongs to God.
ASTROLOGY AS A SCIENCE: A Statistical Approach - Mark Urban-Lurain, $ 19.00
Contents:
List of tables
List of figures
1. Introduction
2. Literature Review: Psychological inventories, Tests of astrologers, Test of astronomical predictors of behavior, Summary
3. Creating a model of evaluating astronomical concomitancies of human behavior: Vague notions, Theoretical arguments, Process model, Equational system, Variable list, Solution form, Data requirements, Estimation, Experimental sample, Solution values (results), Tests of Equation system parameters, Interpretation
Conclusion
Appendices:
A. Alcoholism & Alcoholics Anonymous
B. Computer software
C. Variable list
D. Correlation matrices
E. Data forms for Alcoholics Anonymous members
F. Birth data
Bibliography
General references
Comment: Originally entitled, A multidimensional model for evaluating astronomical concomitances of human behavior. This was Mr. Urban-Lurain's Michigan State University's Master's thesis, 1981. In the conclusion, he writes,
Samples of Alcoholics Anonymous members and the general population of Michigan were selected for evaluation purposes. The multidimensional model was tested with a Discriminant Function Analysis. This multivariate test resulted in the separation of the Alcoholics Anonymous members from the general population with 80.7 percent accuracy. A classification accuracy of 72.2 percent was obtained with this function on a second sample of Michigan births... this model successfully discriminated between members of Alcoholics Anonymous and the general population.... (pg. 43)
There are univariate & multivariate studies. A univariate study has only one variable. In astrological terms, it means, essentially, a study to see if all Taureans are lazy, all Virgos are picky, etc. Gauquelin's studies were of this sort: If your Mars is rising or culminating, you'll be a sports hero. Urban-Lurain has done a multivariate study, one that combines several variables to reach a distinct conclusion. So far as I know, this was unique & as it was successful from the astrological point of view, it is encouraging. The book itself is technical & demanding.
AFA, 77 pages, oversize.
Is what you had in mind?No,I haven't read it.If the actual planets placements in the sky can be measured and
Contents:
List of tables
List of figures
1. Introduction
2. Literature Review: Psychological inventories, Tests of astrologers, Test of astronomical predictors of behavior, Summary
3. Creating a model of evaluating astronomical concomitancies of human behavior: Vague notions, Theoretical arguments, Process model, Equational system, Variable list, Solution form, Data requirements, Estimation, Experimental sample, Solution values (results), Tests of Equation system parameters, Interpretation
Conclusion
Appendices:
A. Alcoholism & Alcoholics Anonymous
B. Computer software
C. Variable list
D. Correlation matrices
E. Data forms for Alcoholics Anonymous members
F. Birth data
Bibliography
General references
Comment: Originally entitled, A multidimensional model for evaluating astronomical concomitances of human behavior. This was Mr. Urban-Lurain's Michigan State University's Master's thesis, 1981. In the conclusion, he writes,
Samples of Alcoholics Anonymous members and the general population of Michigan were selected for evaluation purposes. The multidimensional model was tested with a Discriminant Function Analysis. This multivariate test resulted in the separation of the Alcoholics Anonymous members from the general population with 80.7 percent accuracy. A classification accuracy of 72.2 percent was obtained with this function on a second sample of Michigan births... this model successfully discriminated between members of Alcoholics Anonymous and the general population.... (pg. 43)
There are univariate & multivariate studies. A univariate study has only one variable. In astrological terms, it means, essentially, a study to see if all Taureans are lazy, all Virgos are picky, etc. Gauquelin's studies were of this sort: If your Mars is rising or culminating, you'll be a sports hero. Urban-Lurain has done a multivariate study, one that combines several variables to reach a distinct conclusion. So far as I know, this was unique & as it was successful from the astrological point of view, it is encouraging. The book itself is technical & demanding.
AFA, 77 pages, oversize.
Is what you had in mind?No,I haven't read it.If the actual planets placements in the sky can be measured and
the actual amounts of radiation that are emitted from each planet can be measured,the why not the actual effects of these planets placement on actual humans can be measured?Why wouldn't the effects of a certain planet when it's orbit is close to earth affect the actual humans ,with them being influenced by the particular amount of radiation being ,if you will,being poured on a particular group of people.Thus accounting for plutonian affecting a group and so forth.In the planets in their particular periodic mathematicial rotation each took their so -called turn at pouring out onto or littering the atmostophere with their radiation,this would account for the astrological affect.Thus along with nutrition and other enviromental factors aacount for our differences.In ancient times,people studied each other closely for survivial sakes,so data would be collected and refined over centuries.Then certain traits would emerge and filtered down to be an astrological compost.Really aren't we an extention of this on this site,people asking how to deal with a particular sign.This would "prove" that Astrology transends culture,ethnic,family, societal and enviromental aspects of the human race.Just saying.
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I guess I see patterns, but maybe I see them because I'm looking for them. And I do not know much about astrology, I know much more than the average guy or girl who reads the daily horoscope, but far less than any expert out there. When it comes to numbers I'm lost. So I will never fully UNDERSTAND how astrology works which makes it all the more frustrating.
Are there any scientific factas that support astrology? Apart from the nonsense about how moon can effect the ocean. That is not the same thing, astrology is far more "calculating". Water does not have a personality, and I know the human body cointains mostly water but water does not determine how arrogant we are or how grounded we are etc.
I'm talking about statistics, numbers, concrete facts by research? I know that Carl Jung believed in astrology and I can recall that I read somewhere that he did "statistic" research on his own regarding the subject, and found out that there is "order in the chaos", that there are intresting patterns that support astrology. But he did not say much else.
I've seen documentaries on TV about these things and I've never heard a voice of reason say that astrology is anything but pseudo-science. Have you come across anything that supports astrology? Obviousely it should come from somewhere and someone objective.