Bush N America

George W Bush got elected as US president twice.

What does that say about the americans ...their tastes, beliefs and IQ ?

I don't think that there's something specifically wrong with Americans just because they elected Bush twice.
As Reich Marshall Hermann Goering said at the Nuremberg trial:

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

(Not that the Americans are nazis or anything)

Yama U indeed made a good remark there.

But I generally "believed" that USA is all about meritocracy. This choice they made was far below being mediocre. So terror and fear can have such negative impact on peoples' psyche/judgement.

There may be some other interesting causes as well....Demogrphic changes...some sizeable segment of population showing apathy towards the whole drama of "voting"...etc.

I see it happening in Indian as well.

"But I generally "believed" that USA is all about meritocracy. This choice they made was far below being mediocre."

That's the bi-partisan system for you...A lot of times people just try to vote for the lesser evil.

Hehe..Yama U seem to be a conservative as well. What wud make dems more evil ?

"I see it happening in Indian as well."

It's the same in Israel, and in France as well, I hear.
It seems like candor is "in" lately, with reality shows, blogs, punk music, etc. it seems like people have gotten tired of the specious bs politicians are spouting.

I would tend to differ on this though ...A crude analysis albeit-

Liberals ( at least here ) would come from a more educated and cosmo background and woudlnt care much about politics in general. They arent parochial in their world-view and have very different priorities and occupations in life. On the other hand, the conservatives leverage their hold over the poor, backward, bigots etc who would ensure that raise the bogry , they go to vote ...and they vote en bloc.

"Hehe..Yama U seem to be a conservative as well. What wud make dems more evil ?"

I'm a-political. And I don't think the dems are less evil, but Kerry is a tool.

"On the other hand, the conservatives leverage their hold over the poor, backward, bigots etc who would ensure that raise the bogry , they go to vote ...and they vote en bloc."

This perplexes me, why the hell would poor people vote for people who are against state intervention?(not that I'm doubting that it happens)

not to say that the poor and backward are lesser souls. But the politicians here just wont be interested in their upliftment....vote bank politics.

I think the dynamics are different in USA. Seems the dems would get such votes mostly.
Here ..itz wicked.

"I'm a-political. And I don't think the dems are less evil, but Kerry is a tool."

err..."less"="more"

😛

"not to say that the poor and backward are lesser souls. But the politicians here just wont be interested in their upliftment....vote bank politics."

Don't they have any options? What is the political system in India?

No itz a multi-party system. They do have choices as there are parties formed on specific ground of caste ( community), religion and regions. But the plight would remain the same since they form a vote-bank which would cease to exist once they start getting educated and richer. They are caught in a viscious circle as elections after elctions they would vote for their parties only to be manipulated and ignored later. Only a few reap the benefits and then they become the new lords.

Thanks for reminding me why I'm a-political.😛

Really, though, I think this would change in due time. With the introduction of the internet to the general public people have a greater access to infromation than they ever had, and politicians will find it a lot harder to manipulate them.
Hopefully.

WBTG ...Itz alwayz gud to try n tear apart an argument. Such challenges provoke one to be more precise and incisive...every time. Great.

"[Higher degrees but that's pretty much it not that they would be able to think for themselves if NDTV didn't say so or if TOI didn't validate their outlandish views]"

First of all, being educated and cosmo is a state/attribute and not "quality" always. That was to set the context. As for the channels injecting and nurturing opinions, I see a clear a split there as well. Cynical as Indians usually are, they would lend ears to all kind of analysis and hearsay , but would eventually remain ambivalent at the least. They would prefer to create their own hybrid view of things basing their judgement on what they feel is correct. Now this conviction may not necessarily stand closer scrutiny/ grilling/trial in public as a choice of being aggressive/fanatic is still not very attractive. They are mild ...to say the least. But make no mistakes here ..they arent intellectually impotent.

** Agreed, media moulds the way people think, but it also reflects.

"[Read more influenced by Star World and Western philosophies. Big city life does not make one more aware. Sadly.]"

Again, awareness has no boundaries and itz just a quest. Also, the observations made by you can be applied to a cross-section but cant be stretched and generalized. People living in big cities may not interact often , but they arent insular to others either.
While in small towns and cities, one normally finds more warmth but with restrictions placed according to caste , community, stature etc. Those places have relatively been untouched by modern thoughts n philosophy and hence the traditions play a major role there.

"[No. they are all about "ME ME ME ME. My family , MY Money, My Life. And the country could go to hell for all I care as long as the likes of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie could get away with Racist comments"]. "

In life one has to make a very judicious choice of what battle one has to fight. Right now nobody is in complete control to start a crusade against those "universally known" maladies. Itz difficult to speak of "global optimization" here. We may be inching towards the flavour of nationalism U were making a point about. Trust me...Have patience..most of us would be thnking on the same lines.
....

" HAHAHAHAHA....nice to know you think that people who have little choice in their lives and are as blinded by society as the so-called liberals are Bigots. And pray what are the city dwellers?] "

A hearty laugh is alwayz gud.

This criticism set me wondering. Yes ...I had a deep rooted bias against the so called "bigots". Now I assume that itz more of a syndrome rather than a sterotypical trait.

WBTG ...I was trying to force an view that people who are less privileged in terms of education and exposure are more prone to falling for "herd mentality". Politicians have their henchmen planted among such sections, who never fail to keep "issues" alive and raise bogey.

U helped me in looking at my own views with a different lens.

"And you think "modern" thoughts as you call them are better? Did you question it?"

Part of the "modern" thought process is constant doubt.

"To doubt traditional thought processes. Not to doubt what is accepted as "modern"."

Not sure I agree with you here. I've heard a lot of modern thinkers say that different cultures are all equal, and that everyone has an equally valid point-of-view, etc. ad nauseum.

"Unfortunately. And I was referencing it as to how it is taught in India. Not how it was conceived as an idea in the west."

I would have thought that at such fundamental levels people are the same all around.

"It is something that can be found in "traditional" eastern philosophical texts as well."

Yes, that's the great thing about the "modern" thought process, it's open to all kind of influences.

"That's not how I would interpret it, what you stated. In fact its irrelevant to what I stated and its not much of a counter point."

I'm not so sure about that, the "the traditional vs. the modern" is an old struggle that pretty much every group is familiar with.

"I'm glad you think that is where it was influneced. But from what I could gather it is hardly ever credited as such. Most "modern" authors from what I have read and understood hardly ever credit ( a western thing) the sources that they ultimately took their ideas from esp. if it was influenced by the east. And go on to claim it as its own."

Does it matter?

"Esp. in India, people reject eastern philosophy as being traditional and western philosophy as being "modern". But few really see that its influenced by the each other over time and what we see as "modern" is really what was seen as opposed to religion in Europe. And that is being seen the same in India as well. BUT I wonder if that is the correct way of going about it."

Why not? They get new sources of information, and their POV's change, and thus, they reject old thought processes that no longer suit them, this is how it works, this is a good thing, it's evolution.

"I am not opposing modern thought. What I am disputing is what is seen as modern thought."

And by that you mean...

"Technically. But most "liberals" in India usually take it onto themselves to question traditional cultural influences. "

Nothing wrong with questioning things, doubt is what gets you an education.

"As long as it is accepted in the west its perceived to be modern, as long as it is accepted in the east, its perceived to be traditional. And I am just disputing that."

Oh, then it's not really modern thought, just it's visage.

"I am merely saying that to reject eastern philosophy because it is not perceived to be "modern" is probably not a correct way to go about something."

Dear WBTG ...Embracing western thought doesnt mean that it has to go against the eastern line of thinking. Itz an amalgamation of the best. Eastern is also relevant and modern. In fact the honchoes from the bulge bracket are taking lessons on Gita and Yoga now.

"In the end, people conform. What they conform to maybe different but that it still remains that they do."

So is it all about conformance ?...Is it a vice to conform ?

I think itz more important to focus on what one conforms to.

"And you think "modern" thoughts as you call them are better? Did you question it? Did you think it through? Or did you merely think that "modern" ( read "western") philosophies are more acceptable because that is what is taught in school and at University and that is what makes us more "globally" aware? "


I think here U were a bit hasty. U have some pre-conceived notions about what is supposed to be "modern". Again the imperative here is to see the content and not the form. Modernity entails convergence of thougts as opposed to orthodoxy and fanaticism.
Modern in not what one culture, nation or community can claim to be itz own in exclusivity.

Not to say that U wont find aware people in small towns and other places. But the propensity for people to delve deep and question norms dwindles as U stray into the interiors. Statistically speaking.

"Coming in the end of the argument and pretty much saying exactly what I said as a "counter" point is a weak come back, IMO. "

Dear friend ...If it was a battle of exposing weaknesses...then U must have made it clear at the outset. IMO ....We were travelling on different trains of thought.

In fact...If U wud known it correctly , we would not have spoken on western and eastern schools. It should have been "open" vs "closed".

"I KNOW. And that is exactly my point. But technically alot of so called "modern" thinkers in India believe the opposite to be the case.

That includes you Gaurav."

U r right on that one. Technically we dont have too many believers left. But the root cause for that is not about the quality of eastern thought but the changes it has to undergo to make it more lucid and applicable for the people to follow it. By nature, eastern spiritual science is esoteric and hard to comprehend. Whereas western thought is visibly practical, hands on and less philosophical. In our times when materialism has taken root ..it appears to be more appealing and hence the follwing. Also, since ancient eastern( include islamic as well) can easily be distorted and manipulated , modern scientific thought ( dont read it as solely western) provides solutins which are less provocative and more harmonizing.

"Those "liberals" as you label them are equally blinded into thinking that they are educated but in reality what they are doing is just replacing a set of ideals that they rejected with another set of ideals that they are following. "

Hmmm...I think we are moving into an altogether different realm here. Existentialism ?

"And my point is that it pretty much remains the same when you think in terms of India's reality."

I have seen it in my REC days ( If U know). Students who came from the outside states graduated out as more open , liberal and accepting kinds. Whereas the locals were steeped into traditions and convervatism. And am not discussing the virutues of any one style here.

"Where did your logic come from Gaurav? Was it something you gained while living in the Indian villages or was that what your western influenced university education that's telling you this? "

I have an exposure which has a mix of both. When my thoughts wander back to my childhood days I can reminisce of values, traditions, unquestioned faith. Nothing wrong in that except for that fact that everything was set in stone.

"It really isn't "hard" to comprehend if we didn't take it on ourselves to think it is hard. "

Trust me WBTG...There arent many who find it easy. I may appreciate it and U may champion it but we have to respect what majority feels about it.
And itz better to lust in open than be a hypocrite.

Give me one good reason why people in India are getting into this life style /value system which U so very seem to abhor ?...If our native system is so robust ?

"The Delhites remained as ignorant and "tradtional" as you say you found the locals to be."

Metros are supposed to be the melting pots where people pour in perpetually and make the whole thing so very dynamic. Delhi is no exception and delhites havent been residing there from centuries ago. Down the decades...the city may...may start to stagnate/decay.

So U dismiss the thought that human beings are capable of scaling up rationality ?
They just treat thoughts as fads ?

"I didn't quite follow this. Are you saying that our eastern philosophy encourages people to be prudes? Are you sure? "

Dear friend ..I hope U understand this subtly...No philosophy would encourage ppl to be prudes. Itz the choice of interpretation which distinguishes.

"I have found very few city dwellers who belonged to those big cities to KNOW even where Assam is and whether it is a part of India or not. In fact the people who came from more smaller towns villages were probably more "accepting" as you say of new Ideas and were more aware of their surroundings"

Obviously U r drawing Ur sample from those who originated from small towns but finally moved to the metros/big cities for education. Not that makes the whole argument looks flawed since we are speaking of the people who "reside". Also accumulating "general knowledge" is different from being open.

"Which only proves my point that it has nothing to do with living in the villages. It has everything to do with an ingrained "tradition" to conform. Whether it is our family traditons or its our University education."

U can answer it if U try again - What is it U conform to ?..The adjective and not the noun please.

" And probably adhere to it even though technically, its applicablity to our society could be disputed."

Examples ?

"Could you give me an example"

In Haryana ..Jats are quite parochial and conservative. But if the same Jaat kid spends his time in defense environment his dad being in Navy ,doesnt show even a single strain of such bevaior. What would U attribute it to but a cosmo upbringing free of any caste consideration ..in fact free of even a mention. In a similar manner ...Metros tend to diminish such barriers. Now whther thatz marginal or substantial ...U decide.

Dear WBTG ....Acknowledge this- BODO movement, ULFA , LTTE, LeT et al come from the interiors.

"The fact remains is that Ignorance isn't confined to the "interiors" as you say. Its very much prevalent in the bigger cities. And if you are unaware then you are unaware and anyone can take you for a ride irrespective of whether you are educated or not."

It would be naive of me to assert that "every" city dweller is omniscient. I feel we were talking of the trends which indeed favor those who get exposed to education and cosmo environment. Again, equating awareness with being accepting directly wont be that appropriate.

Here "accepting" means - agreeing to disagree in a peaceful manner.

"And yes the point you made is irrelevant. In the sense what is perceived as modern and traditional is influenced by where you live and how it effects you. And to think its universal and hence whatever idea that is applicable in one society is applicable in all societies is what can cause alot of misunderstandings in the future."

Nope, I was dealing in abstract terms.

Hi ..

Nice debate and I was almost agreed with both of you until this (agree to disagree) thing comes up..!

In my humble opinion..:

When someone blurts out an Agree to Disagree it means they will no longer desire to see if they are incorrect on a given subject. They will continue to believe what they want to believe. They will reject all the truth they have been given to remain in their present belief. Spiritual growth is hindered by a settlement philosophy.

In other word... Truth Remains Buried

Understanding the truth and practising the justice based on basic human rights are important, not the political manipulations and excuses based on traditions and cultural beliefs don't you think so..?



Again? informative and very nice debate? thank you guys ?!

"If you are talking about a tea time debate such as this one, I can "accept" to agree to disagree with you."

No that wasnt my point.

"The people live lives that are not dictated by Harvard educated professors who have never gone hungry in their lives. It is dictated by their AWARENESS of their REALITY"

Educated professors whether from Harvard or JNU just dont sit in their in their chairs and preach. And rather than infusing disparaging remarks U ought to study the history and philosophy behind schools such as Harvard, JNU, MIT , Yale etc. I dont quite get the point here. Why should the anger be diverted against such class when it has little to do with the plight of the people on the other side of the planet. Rhetoric ?

"But awareness is a step to acceptance, don;t you think? If you are not aware about the trials and tribulations of a cause, how can you "accept" it?"

Again, U are equating awareness with "general knowledge" say about geography , science etc. And am trying to emphasize on the exposure related aspect of education and life in a city. "Coward" is a strong term and as such it is not applicable.


"So which is it: Does "open" mindedness in this case result in naiviety? Naviety to the realities of people in different parts of the world"

Dear friend ...Being carefully critical is a quality which everyone should imbibe. So U mean to say that people in big cities are just unaware of the "realities " and whatever knowledge they have is fed to them by channels and media ? And pray what are the other mediums possible/available if not these ? And how do you deduce that a general lack of interest in others would eqate to being less open ? Awareness is a step to openness U said...But not a prerequiste. And please qualify what is awareness here.

U say that to justify a cause U have to live it out. By that yardstick ...millionaires doing charity shall become poor first ...Professors shall beocme illiterate first...Army officers shall become soldiers first...Rescue workers shall drown first ...Otherwise in Ur opinion it will remain a sham. I am not trying to demean anybody here. Just that even w/o going through the trials and tribulations one can adopt a cause by looking into the merits. Yes there will a sizeable who would follow some causes like fanatics but they wont count as majority am sure.

"When someone blurts out an Agree to Disagree it means they will no longer desire to see if they are incorrect on a given subject. They will continue to believe what they want to believe. They will reject all the truth they have been given to remain in their present belief. Spiritual growth is hindered by a settlement philosophy.
"

Qbone , the context is important here. When U agree to disagree , U dont stop looking for the truth but in fact start accpeting that another version exists. U acknowledge that but would still need time to investigate and refine the existing set of conclusions. Itz about accomodation and assimilation and not about closing the doors. However therez a point beyond which everything becomes individual in nature and U cant force the issue further.

I think this is fast becoming a labyrinth. Please can all of U come up with Ur understanding of these terms-
1. accepting
2. awareness
3. open
4. liberals
5. conservative

....🙂

Gaurav_Aries's

You said the word and I wont argue with that anymore.. (its your philosophies)?(I hope)


Your questions about:

1. accepting
2. awareness
3. open
4. liberals
5. conservative

Can be easily picked up by Wiki? anything else you can say about those..??

I mean your own opinion..!!

?The word cosmopolitan describes an environment where many cultures from around the world coexist; or a person whose perspective reflects exposure to a variety of cultures. It may also have the weaker senses of "worldly" or "sophisticated". - Wikipedia.

When U said that the Navy kid's conduct had nothing to do with the cosmo exposure but only traveling , U were being rigid. Traveling is indeed a component, but it's the exposure to diversity which already exists at such base stations which is the key. Officers are drawn from various parts of the country having different backgrounds and belonging to different races and they ?reside? together. Hope U spot a similarity here.

When the so called ?cowards? of the city eventually cross their ?door steps? in the morning, I assume that they don't go out to drown in the sea or to get killed in accidents. They go out for work , where they interact with ?real? people at office, market places etc.

So, as U can see, they actually don't live a life completely cut-off from human souls and being fed by the TV. In fact if U do some analysis of the life-cycle , then I assume that U are born in a city first and hopefully U go to school for education where hopefully again U have many other pupils around ( belonging to different back grounds) with whom U interact with. U tend to change schools as well and also this affair lasts for 12 years on an average. Population in a typical city undergoes constant churn and upheavals and hence the set U deal with doesn't stagnate .

Got it ?

Dear WBTG ...I am not even mentioning the "links" which city people still maintain with their "roots" tracing back to small towns. They have relatives and friends staying in remote places and they do keep in "real" touch. So itz not the TV which acts as governance here. They do have "minds" of their own which they use optimally.

The sombre picture which U have painted about a "city" is way too far from relaity. People stayin there aint robots dude. Just that they dont have time after "office" to interact within the "neighbourhood". Unlike in a small town/village where U indeed move out at leisure but end up meeting the same "small" set of people daily and discussing the same issues.

Please, try to differentiate between the "absolute" and "relative" here. Am not trying to typecast. If I can help U understand, I am trying to catch general trends.

Last but not the least ...We interacting with each other over DXP..along with other fellas from different places...has been made poosible for us only coz we are staying in "citites"...Can U think of getting such exposure in a small town ?

Not to say that this will assuredly make U more "open"....But at least U have a chance.

" don't know where you have been all your life, dude, BUT that must be the most ridiculous statement ever. The only reason YOU and I are able to interact with each other on DXP is because we just happen to have computers, telecommunication lines, an internet service provider and oh, most importantly : ELECTRICITY."

Pity. In India itz the big cities which have these basic utilities available. Thatz the connection and "logic" inherent which U so habitually tend to miss. I

"Another example, the racial slur of "Chinks" is only expressed by people living in Delhi against the North eastern people"

Thatz coz most people from NE come to delhi to get education and they dont go to the small villages of North India ( where they would be slaughtered on a flimsy pretext , forget about co-existing).Sporadic incidents and U would start maligning.
In fact , for your enlightement, people from small towns and villages come to delhi for college education and are most responsible for such racism.


84 sikh riots happened in 1984 and that was 22 years back dude. And then U would not consider countless number of deaths happening in small towns as a result of family/community feuds. Naga Kuki clashes ?...Does that strike a cord ?

"A person sitting in a cafe on top of the Himalayas can still send an email and post DESPITE not living in the cities because as long as he has a phone, money and yes ELECTRICITY he can pretty much connect to the net."

MONEY , CAFE and PHONE. Compare the probability when it comes to "himalayas" and "mumbai". U are intelligent and am sure U will get it. Speak of numbers.

"Race? Since when did India have race?"

Laguhable. We have Aryans and dravidians at the top then Bengalis, Sindhis , Muslims ( Moghuls), Marathas, Punjabis, Rajputs....its never ending.

"And dude, like I said, I don't know where you have been living, but electricity, internet, phone lines, ISP is available in the "interiors" as well. And Delhi is famous for its power outages"

I have been to almost all parts of the country and I clearly see the difference in the levels of "peneteration" and "usage". Itz futile to explain the significance of these to U.