UNCONDITIONAL ROMANTIC LOVE

"Strength, courage and a deep security within oneself are able to be vulnerable, able to lay it all out there for the person they either are falling in love with or in love with. It is unconditional, a brave sacrifice and most important COMMUNICATION that says..YOU are the one I want leaving no question for the other person. That would be putting all cards on the table.

Anything short of that is games, no balls and a need for more growing up to do." - LIB



All True.

In the ULTIMATE kind of devoted union, the man and woman will TRULY grow into each and become as one. Walking together down the path of life as ONE. Sharing ALL the emotions, thoughts and values as ONE. Confronting all of
life's obstacles, head-on, together.

The greatest lovers of all are also the greatest friends of all.

The couples that can pull that off throughout their lives are truly admirable examples.

What is so unfortunate and what many fail to acknowledge, is a deep close bond is full of sacrifices.
It's not all fun and games and bedroom activities. It's so much more than that.
Many fail to truly respect what such a marriage is and respect the seriousness of it.

In my book, that's the ultimate relationship is. What a Marriage should be.
I can tell you all this, There are some amazing things one learns with the experience in spite of
the periods of hardship, pain and suffering, however intense, they may go through.

Anything less, is, well.... less.
Sometimes, that "less" IS the case, in which case, the relationship is being carried by one of the partners.
Sometimes the effort goes unnoticed, let alone, appreciated because for that one, love is blind and unconditional
in the face of such an instance.

I think that the majority of people on these forums haven't truly experienced the ULTIMATE successful relationship. If they had, I doubt they would be spending much time, here. That is NOT to say that everyone here hasn't truly loved someone.

Love is not about fun and games and self-happiness. It's so far much more than that.

Well, anyway.

Posted by MrFirebird
"Strength, courage and a deep security within oneself are able to be vulnerable, able to lay it all out there for the person they either are falling in love with or in love with. It is unconditional, a brave sacrifice and most important COMMUNICATION that says..YOU are the one I want leaving no question for the other person. That would be putting all cards on the table.

Anything short of that is games, no balls and a need for more growing up to do." - LIB



All True.

In the ULTIMATE kind of devoted union, the man and woman will TRULY grow into each and become as one. Walking together down the path of life as ONE. Sharing ALL the emotions, thoughts and values as ONE. Confronting all of
life's obstacles, head-on, together.

The greatest lovers of all are also the greatest friends of all.

The couples that can pull that off throughout their lives are truly admirable examples.

What is so unfortunate and what many fail to acknowledge, is a deep close bond is full of sacrifices.
It's not all fun and games and bedroom activities. It's so much more than that.
Many fail to truly respect what such a marriage is and respect the seriousness of it.

In my book, that's the ultimate relationship is. What a Marriage should be.
I can tell you all this, There are some amazing things one learns with the experience in spite of
the periods of hardship, pain and suffering, however intense, they may go through.

Anything less, is, well.... less.
Sometimes, that "less" IS the case, in which case, the relationship is being carried by one of the partners.
Sometimes the effort goes unnoticed, let alone, appreciated because for that one, love is blind and unconditional
in the face of such an instance.

I think that the majority of people on these forums haven't truly experienced the ULTIMATE successful relationship. If they had, I doubt they would be spending much time, here. That is NOT to say that everyone here hasn't truly loved someone.

Love is not about fun and games and self-happiness. It's so far much more than that.

Well, anyway.

I agree with all of this except the marriage part. I have been married twice and have come to the realization that the paper doesn't mean much.

I never came to the realization that the paper doesn't mean much because of my two failed marriages though. I came to the realization because my spiritual beliefs have changed.

What are you really trying to say? ... Lol 🙂

Posted by FixedWater

Posted by MrFirebird
"Strength, courage and a deep security within oneself are able to be vulnerable, able to lay it all out there for the person they either are falling in love with or in love with. It is unconditional, a brave sacrifice and most important COMMUNICATION that says..YOU are the one I want leaving no question for the other person. That would be putting all cards on the table.

Anything short of that is games, no balls and a need for more growing up to do." - LIB



All True.

In the ULTIMATE kind of devoted union, the man and woman will TRULY grow into each and become as one. Walking together down the path of life as ONE. Sharing ALL the emotions, thoughts and values as ONE. Confronting all of
life's obstacles, head-on, together.

The greatest lovers of all are also the greatest friends of all.

The couples that can pull that off throughout their lives are truly admirable examples.

What is so unfortunate and what many fail to acknowledge, is a deep close bond is full of sacrifices.
It's not all fun and games and bedroom activities. It's so much more than that.
Many fail to truly respect what such a marriage is and respect the seriousness of it.

In my book, that's the ultimate relationship is. What a Marriage should be.
I can tell you all this, There are some amazing things one learns with the experience in spite of
the periods of hardship, pain and suffering, however intense, they may go through.

Anything less, is, well.... less.
Sometimes, that "less" IS the case, in which case, the relationship is being carried by one of the partners.
Sometimes the effort goes unnoticed, let alone, appreciated because for that one, love is blind and unconditional
in the face of such an instance.

I think that the majority of people on these forums haven't truly experienced the ULTIMATE successful relationship. If they had, I doubt they would be spending much time, here. That is NOT to say that everyone here hasn't truly loved someone.

Love is not about fun and games and self-happiness. It's so far much more than that.

Well, anyway.

I agree with all of this except the marriage part. I have been married twice and have come to the realization that the paper doesn't mean much.

click to expand

Marriage is NOT a "piece of paper"

(Darn Dxp)

Marriage is NOT a "piece of paper".
"Paper" is merely a governmental document.
You must stop for moment and reconsider your concept of "Marriage".
IF the paper doesn't mean much, it was only because the Marriage, itself, didn't mean much.
IF Marriage doesn't mean much, it is only because the LOVE, itself, didn't mean much.
It didn't mean much because it was NOT "UNCONDITIONAL".

If one refuses to be abused and to take away or destroy the love that was there because of abuse, walks away from it because of abuse, does that mean it's conditional love?

Posted by FixedWater
What are you really trying to say? ... Lol 🙂

If the love is isn't UNCONDITIONAL, It's gonna turn into a runaway train.

I know how to love unconditionally, it almost comes naturally to me. I also know what it feels like to be loved conditionally. Marriage is a piece of paper from my side of the fence. It ensures the man can do pretty much whatever he pleases and plays on the heartstrings of a woman. "No, I cant divorce him, I promised till death do us part! Hopefully he has learned his lesson (yeah right) and wont do it again".

I think balance is the key and the fact that there isn't a wedding ring on her finger does balance things quite nicely. Kinda like if your playing golf and you're a shit player, you get a handicap or something right? Lol

Just my take though, I understand where you're coming from, I just don't agree.

Posted by MoonArtist
If one refuses to be abused and to take away or destroy the love that was there because of abuse, walks away from it because of abuse, does that mean it's conditional love?

TRUE, and I do mean TRUE in every sense of the word, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE suffer and endure a great many thing, but it isn't stupid.
No woman or man for that matter, should ever abuse his or her spouse. By all means, leaving that abusing spouse is an act of survival and self-preservation. It does fall under the classification of "conditional love".

Unconditional love will not only endure, but forgive each and every abuse, up to and including...., death.
It is the absolute ultimate expression of the truest sense of love of the absolute HIGHEST Order. Few possess this quality.

Now, I've talked about "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" but that kind of love MUST be "MUTUAL" for the Marriage to be an ULTIMATE example of the Highest standard. When two young lovers enter the marriage, it is extremely important
for the BOTH of them to understand that "MUTUAL UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" is what is needed for their marriage to survive.

Further..... For example, in such a high caliber relationship, neither spouse, would ever think to harm the other. A man would not even look upon another woman, to desire after her, in his heart, because he would be harming his wife already, in his heart. Same goes for the woman. Both will ALWAYS be on the lookout for trouble. They WILL always
have each other's back and IF one should slip up, the other will gladly forgive and the two work out the problem.
Fidelity, MUTUAL RESPECT, Selflessness, Responsibility, among other things, are all hallmarks of true love.
Most young people don't really fathom all that in the storm of hormonal influence and emotional confusion of the
crazy years of their lives. As a result, they get hurt over and over and over again.

Posted by Impulsv
The other persons was. Unfortunately unconditional must be from both otherwise one can totally deteriote the sanctity of marriage

Exactly.

This is the Holy Grail we were basically talking about the other day, I am just not very good at putting those feelings into words, at times. That kind of Love would not need marriage, at all. Not to say that couple would not conduct rituals, but that in my eyes that document isn't necessary.
Now if I was a part of this Holy Grail of relationships and he wanted marriage? I would not refuse it.

I gave most of that, but it was very one sided and not reciprocated. The problem is that those that use people will agree and SAY they want those things, SAY all the right words and even go through the motions for as long as it takes them to get you hooked. It wasn't until I had kids and stopped working that his mask fell off completely...when he knew I was "stuck" and trapped. So how does one weed out the pretty lies from the real?

As for the unconditional love part....no, I won't forgive the abuse and I have too much self respect to put up with it for the sake of vows.

Posted by FixedWater
This is the Holy Grail we were basically talking about the other day, I am just not very good at putting those feelings into words, at times. That kind of Love would not need marriage, at all. Not to say that couple would not conduct rituals, but that in my eyes that document isn't necessary.
Now if I was a part of this Holy Grail of relationships and he wanted marriage? I would not refuse it.

It's not that "that kind of Love would not need marriage", rather, it's Marriage NEEDS THAT kind of LOVE.

Also, to answer your previous post, had your original marriage been what I described, you certainly wouldn't be here
having this discussion with me and the others. You would be a blissfully happy bride and groom lost in space somewhere.

(sorry, just trying keep it light for everyone)

But that's okay!

You and everyone else, by fate, are reading what I have to say.
Fate brought you here.

Not only you and the others, but myself, also.

I think, for me, the passing of time and deeep soul-searching reflection upon all the events of my life
have a meaning and a purpose. What exactly, I don't know.
BUT if I can share/pass on meaningful lessons that I've learned to others, then...... my life will not have been in vain.
Of course, at any moment, I could cease to give a damn.

Posted by MrFirebird

Posted by FixedWater
This is the Holy Grail we were basically talking about the other day, I am just not very good at putting those feelings into words, at times. That kind of Love would not need marriage, at all. Not to say that couple would not conduct rituals, but that in my eyes that document isn't necessary.
Now if I was a part of this Holy Grail of relationships and he wanted marriage? I would not refuse it.

It's not that "that kind of Love would not need marriage", rather, it's Marriage NEEDS THAT kind of LOVE.

Also, to answer your previous post, had your original marriage been what I described, you certainly wouldn't be here
having this discussion with me and the others. You would be a blissfully happy bride and groom lost in space somewhere.

(sorry, just trying keep it light for everyone)

But that's okay!

You and everyone else, by fate, are reading what I have to say.
Fate brought you here.

Not only you and the others, but myself, also.

I think, for me, the passing of time and deeep soul-searching reflection upon all the events of my life
have a meaning and a purpose. What exactly, I don't know.
BUT if I can share/pass on meaningful lessons that I've learned to others, then...... my life will not have been in vain.
Of course, at any moment, I could cease to give a damn.

click to expand

All good points, but especially the first. Marriage does need that kind of love. It is such a different perspective from a Woman's point of view vs a Man's. Sometimes I do wish I had the kind of power that a Man seems to weild in a relationship because then I think it would operate under a veil of unconditional love instead of control. In other words, I wouldn't have been hurt. I never asked for that, I didn't want it, yet that's what I got. So you see how it seems that marriage is a trap. Too often we find ourselves with someone that wasn't even remotely close to the Man we fell in love with and pledged our life to. This is the dangers of getting married while not mature enough to know the real questions that need to be answered. Our focus shifts as we get older and mature.

Like you, I am here because fate has brought me here. I dont ask why, I just contribute when I can and I learn as I go. It is important and real in my opinion.

Posted by FrostAndBite
Traditional 'unconditional' love is boring.

I'm slowly becoming a bit of a non-traditionalist over marriage in some aspects. I see it useful mainly for the legal and social benefits. It's not needed to affirm my emotional connection or pledged companionship with someone though.

I feel the same way. It is a bit surprising the reactions you get without a ring vs with a ring. Lol

Your an old soul Mr.F. I sense that about you.

People, the whole point of a marriage is about becoming ONE, and a mightier force to be reckoned with in the world.

People have been "married" but don't really grasp the spiritual depths of it. Instead, all they can see is their
reflection on the surface. And when the water is troubled, they lose interest and walk away.

Once you understand that the marital union is a Unfathomably SPIRITUAL thing.... that could NEVER EVER
be duplicated in the form of friends with benefits, casual sex fornication, adultery, and whatever other perversions
one can think of and think it's "Normal".

No, A man and woman, both, must have absolute "PROPER" SELF-RESPECT to even hope to the have kind of "Holy Grail" relationship which I speak of.

To summarize the point - We must first desire to better ourselves ever higher and higher and higher.... yes, up there where the air is rare. Refining ourselves as GOLD is tried in the fire.

It's not easy.

On The other hand...... It may well be that those who have experienced failed marriage, might consider that
marriage isn't for them. Perhaps, they are to go through life alone, accomplishing things having a much higher purpose.

(Note that I am unable to write all the thoughts that go through my head - just know there is a vast universe behind what you read - just let these words encourage contemplation of the deeper and more important and meaningful and purer things)

Fixed,
When two people truly become one, there is no distinction between man and woman.

I perceive that this is an apparent barrier for many, many women as well as many men.
They are holding back and refusing to completely and wholly let go.

Think of it this way:
The when the man and the woman truly become ONE - that "ONE" is an entirely different entity than
a man and woman with their corresponding physical differences. It's an entirely different state of mind.

I think the vast majority of people are unable to get to that level, in part due to the environment in
which they live. IF they are influenced by corruption, then they will naturally have a corrupt perception.
That corruption must be identified and removed, before one can hope to begin to move in the direction
of the REAL thing.

I am adding more to this this reply.

All good points, but especially the first. Marriage does need that kind of love. It is such a different perspective from a Woman's point of view vs a Man's. Sometimes I do wish I had the kind of power that a Man seems to weild in a relationship because then I think it would operate under a veil of unconditional love instead of control. In other words, I wouldn't have been hurt. I never asked for that, I didn't want it, yet that's what I got. So you see how it seems that marriage is a trap. Too often we find ourselves with someone that wasn't even remotely close to the Man we fell in love with and pledged our life to. This is the dangers of getting married while not mature enough to know the real questions that need to be answered. Our focus shifts as we get older and mature.

In such a relationship, which I speak of, there would not be the concept of "Control" as you have defined it.

I can understand yet I can also see areas that leave room for improvement, refinement even revision.

Forgive me if I sound "clinical"


Now... this is one for everyone, not just Fixed, to stop and consider.

When you say that you fell in love. Are you sure that it was love and not lust?
I ask because the line can be blurred so well that one wouldn't even notice.
That is, until the problems begin.

There are in many cultures and religions that have what they call planned or arranged marriages. it's the practice where the parents of both male and female decide and agree together whether their son and daughter will be married.
It is, in fact an ancient practice.
In the United States, that practice is nowhere near as common.

The point of it is thought to ensure that the boy and girl are brought up according to the parent's doctrines and beliefs and values, this way, those issues are settled so there be no dispute between the couple in question.
I would call it a "pre-emptive" measure. (I know there are strong disagreements to the practice)

In the United States, however, that concept is dominantly out the window. That's ok, but what happens with that vacuum is the window of opportunity for all sort fundamental disagreements to emerge - such that the couple is
unaware of due to lack of time together. - I think there's objective lesson to be learned from that.

Trouble with the ancient way is that there is STILL room for the possibility of a failed marriage in spite of
the arranged-marriage preparation. Especially in the area where "chemistry" r

(continued)

Trouble with the ancient way is that there is STILL room for the possibility of a failed marriage in spite of
the arranged-marriage preparation. Especially in the area where "chemistry" runs afoul.

In the US it's a free for all young people pick and choose while still trying to figure out the rest in life
at time when they still have rocks in their heads.

Posted by starlover
Mr F...you are talking from a male point of view

Lots of men dont know how to love conditionally (how many men do you know if told they were to go without sex for a long period of time would do this for the woman)??...some women do...not all of course, but we are given the gift of motherhood, we have no choice but to love our dear children without condition. My son is the only person i have met that i would actually *die* for ~ in a heartbeat ~ no questions asked

There is often an unbalance between the *essence* of love between a man and a woman, hence the change in the sanctity of marriage....not many women want to give themselves up to a man that knows very little about the kind of love she has been blessed with. The reason marriage is becoming less valued is because women are becoming freer, unlike our mothers and grandmothers we now have more choices

x

I don't disagree that people have increasingly devalued marriage.

You know what happens to a lot of the kids that those "choices" and devalued marriages produced, though—?

A lot of messed up kids. And that has a direct impact on the future of society and the world at large.

Everyone should read this random grab about child abuse and neglect.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-report-finds-that-untreated-the-effects-of-child-abuse-and-neglect-can-last-a-lifetime/2013/09/12/1edc0bdc-1bc7-11e3-82ef-a059e54c49d0_story.html<BR>
Because of the freedom, there is a price to be paid. And it isn't going to be cheap.

Life is going to become even more miserable for everyone in the coming decades when the now toddlers grow up.
There IS a curse upon the land.

We really don't appreciate the impact our choices make on the future. - no everyone is to busy thinking about only themselves.

I am just one speaking from a distant outpost. Not as a man, but as one who can see afar off.

More and more, each day, I am becoming less and less tied to this world.

My advice to parents - raise your kids right, don't abuse them, don't neglect them and don't teach them to hate their fathers or their mothers if they be in a single parent setting.

Posted by starlover
*Lots of men dont know how to love unconditionally*

The same can be said about a lot of women.

Posted by starlover
..yes it could, but did you read what i wrote...we are mothers...the unconditional love thing is more instinctual with us

hard to explain until you have been one Mr. F ~~ next life maybe??

i often say that i didn't know what real love was until i had my son ~ it is unrelenting and powerful and never questionable


🙂

I going to differ with you on that "instinct" because I, as a Man, see things before they happen.
There are good mothers and there are bad mothers just the same as there are good fathers and bad fathers.

Any Grandkids?

Oh... and NO, I don't think I'll be coming back. Waaay too many 9s. 😉

You are invited to read this random hokey pokey - http://www.douban.com/group/topic/9488849/<BR> And she's just talking about One "9".

Posted by starlover
**You know what happens to a lot of the kids that those "choices" and devalued marriages produced, though—?**


My son is one of those Mr F and he is well balanced, loved and doing well at school and in life generally. If his Dad and i had stayed together, i doubt somehow he would have been so good? He told me, he is glad we live apart as he could feel the tension. Having said that, his Dad and i are the best of friends. I said to him after he left, *either we can think of our egos and fuck it up or think of our son and heal it*

So we did 🙂

That's fine. But you MUST consider his generation, not just him. Not all those among his peers, are going
to have the experience he has. For better or worse.

So far as egos go... it's our wits that make us men. Not our ego.

Posted by starlover
No grandkids....my son is quite young still 🙂 and i am still enjoying raising him and learning about myself 😄

I meant to say women are wired biologically to nurture and care in a different way to men ~ sorry i used the wrong word there

Men can be very instinctive..that is a different thing

Yes, but the good father brings an entirely different set of "nurturing" that a mother could never provide
that prepares him for the rest of his life.

Posted by starlover
Yes that is very true Mr. F ~~ i am just very thankful and relieved that my lad's Dad didnt do a runner, as they are very close now


I hoped and prayed every day that it would all work out

Guessing that intent is everything


🙂


Have some numerology questions for you, but don't want to flood here, so will go the the forum for that

I made a post about 9s here in the scorp forum.
It's not really about numerology, per se.

More about finding multiples of coincidences.

Posted by FixedWater

I agree with all of this except the marriage part. I have been married twice and have come to the realization that the paper doesn't mean much.

Getting something in writing does mean a lot even if you don't marry again. That paper is going to protect your ass. I'm going to start another thread as not to sidetrack this one for Firebird.

Posted by MrFirebird
(Darn Dxp)

Marriage is NOT a "piece of paper".
"Paper" is merely a governmental document.
You must stop for moment and reconsider your concept of "Marriage".
IF the paper doesn't mean much, it was only because the Marriage, itself, didn't mean much.
IF Marriage doesn't mean much, it is only because the LOVE, itself, didn't mean much.
It didn't mean much because it was NOT "UNCONDITIONAL".


Understand?

Sorry Firebird...not in my world. They are separate indeed.

Posted by MrFirebird

Further..... For example, in such a high caliber relationship, neither spouse, would ever think to harm the other. A man would not even look upon another woman, to desire after her, in his heart, because he would be harming his wife already, in his heart. Same goes for the woman. Both will ALWAYS be on the lookout for trouble.

They WILL always
have each other's back and IF one should slip up, the other will gladly forgive and the two work out the problem.
Fidelity, MUTUAL RESPECT, Selflessness, Responsibility, among other things, are all hallmarks of true love.

My ex and I had all of the above^^^ without getting personal, when the marriage ended, we STILL had each other's back and do today. However, the legal system in the state of New York fucked the both of us, tried to make enemies out of us while the lawyers got wealthier, and lost us A LOT of money that our son/step children lost out on and took both of us close to two years to pay for. That piece of paper has nothing to do with FEELINGS imo. If you are going to have a piece of paper to marry, you need a piece of paper to protect the marriage paper even if you live together.

I'm not against marriage at all. I'm old school, but old school also taught me and the business I'm in and watching men get raked over the coals...GET IT IN WRITING!

Better to be sitting in a chair signing a piece of paper confidently than to be standing before a judge bent over grabbing your ankles!

Posted by MrFirebird
Oh... and NO, I don't think I'll be coming back. Waaay too many 9s. 😉

You are invited to read this random hokey pokey - http://www.douban.com/group/topic/9488849/<BR> And she's just talking about One "9".

I knew you were an old soul...but not because of your life path number.

Posted by starlover
**You know what happens to a lot of the kids that those "choices" and devalued marriages produced, though—?**


My son is one of those Mr F and he is well balanced, loved and doing well at school and in life generally. If his Dad and i had stayed together, i doubt somehow he would have been so good? He told me, he is glad we live apart as he could feel the tension. Having said that, his Dad and i are the best of friends. I said to him after he left, *either we can think of our egos and fuck it up or think of our son and heal it*

So we did 🙂

This is so important, to try to heal as individuals with the main focus being the kidlets.
I left my Son's Father when my son was 8 months old. He is now this incredible Man with values any other type of household would have been hard-pressed to teach. We learned through experiences and as I have said before, we hold each other's hands. He is super protective of Mom and his little sister along with any other person he runs across that's getting the shit end of the deal. He has a great deal of compassion and empathy and he amazes me. I cannot wait to see what he will be when he really grows up.

That is such a beautiful quote, thanks for sharing it Porcelainr.

The Father plays a critical role in the raising of his children. We cannot possibly hope to raise well-balanced kids without the love and attention from both parents. As is with me and my imperfections, the same applies for him when relating to the kids. They should come away with a positive understanding of both the good and bad of each parent. This would allow them the ability to get to know, and accept their own good and bad. No one on this earth should ever be expected to be flawless and that has to start at home.

I agree Lib and I will jump over to that thread in a bit.

Marriage by todays standards is much different from yester-year. Considering the divorce rate and our current throw-away culture should anyone get married in that traditional sense at all? Maybe it is time to re-vamp the idea of marriage. For starters, take the government out of it.