Insane? .... or of sound mind?

This isn't addressing any specific killer.

I usually can't get past it, when it is determined that a person is of sound mind ... when clearly they are not. Just because a person doesn't act according to the perception of crazy, that it means they aren't crazy.

To be a serial killer means you are insane, whether you can appear rationally, or not .... and I don't get this.

Take Chikatilo, for example, who was ruled sane, and then tried .... just because he could think and talk logically, rationally, doesn't mean he was sane.


Because wouldn't a person HAVE to be insane, to commit such heinous crimes?

You would think?

I'd say something has to be very off in a person's head for them to go out & kill other human beings for fun/pleasure. What scares me the most, though, are the killers that leave no body to be found & those that dismember their victim's bodies. That is so creepy to me. Necrophilia is another one I don't get. What about the smell?

Killers have to be insane going by all the things that they do.

One of my old professors used to work for the Public Defender's office in our state's capital. He told us there was a homeless man that kept being arrested for various, kind of "low level" type crimes and assigned to the Public Def's office for representation. My Prof was convinced he was legally insane, but all the state administered insanity tests would always come back not insane.. So this guy would quickly do his time and get released.

Except for the last time the guy got arrested. He had decapitated two people with piano wire. Sawed through their necks with it while they were still alive.. Took about 2 hours. Yeah... Okay government.. You tell me that man wasn't insane. Smh.

I think the reason for that is we do not have an accurate description of insanity as pertaining to a derranged individual.

We have the "insanity" we know from medicine books..the one that pertains to specific disorders and how we can treat them - biplolar disorder, borderline personality etc. We define sanity excluding all mental disorders we know of by now. What remains is either sanity - people of sound mind or a type of insanity we still don't know how to define and if we can treat it. The latter is applicable to serial killers.

It's contradictory because in the full range of mental disorders there's always a check list for deviant behavior..you see the disorder clearly because we're trained to look for very specific signs. When it comes to serial killers we don't have a check list and we cannot use our minds to properly gauge their nature because we're either in shock or don't know where to begin with it.

I don't think they see things in terms of good and bad. I think I read somewhere there are specific parts of our brain that light up when it comes to the concept of morality. There was some testing on this with sociopaths and that part doesn't light up at all. Maybe their brain is built entirely differently.

P, I think that when the word "insane" is used in this sort of scenario, it's in reference to someone who is living so far outside of consensus reality as to have no idea that he has done anything objectionable. Most killers are fully aware than they are doing something society finds wrong, and prove it by being cunning and evasive about their actions. This would, I think, rule out legal insanity. You can be a psychopath without being insane.

Insane but of sound mind; an oxymoron, but at the same time makes sense. They are cold and unfeeling; no sense of what's good/bad. I read one serial killers writings and he wanted to "feel" but couldn't. The bad things he did he felt indifferent about it. He cared for no one nor anything. He ate to live; did not enjoy things in life. Was he insane because he didn't "feel"? hmm....

Perhaps one reason people don't like to commit others to being insane in court is because then they'd get off easy. Instead of spending time in prison, they'd spend it in a mental health facility. For all you lex talionis people, surely you would rather have them filed away as sane and spend it in prison rather than being in a mental health facility?

Serial killers are likely to end up in a supermax prison if they get sentenced without the insanity plea. Supermax prisons rely heavily on solitary confinement and the inmates only have maybe 1 or 2 hours of recreation time a day. So, most of their time they're sitting in their small cell alone without much to do.

Also, these people aren't going to be very liked by even other inmates, especially if their targets were children and women. Look at rapists and child molesters. What happens to them in prison? Well, lets say you get what you give. Of course in supermax prisons the inmates probably won't have any time to get back at others, especially since the security is so tight.

In the end, though, a lot of these people would be considered insane by definition, but the courts have higher standards and need a lot of proof for this. Insanity pleas rarely work.

Posted by Scenic
Serial killers are likely to end up in a supermax prison if they get sentenced without the insanity plea. Supermax prisons rely heavily on solitary confinement and the inmates only have maybe 1 or 2 hours of recreation time a day. So, most of their time they're sitting in their small cell alone without much to do.

Also, these people aren't going to be very liked by even other inmates, especially if their targets were children and women. Look at rapists and child molesters. What happens to them in prison? Well, lets say you get what you give. Of course in supermax prisons the inmates probably won't have any time to get back at others, especially since the security is so tight.

In the end, though, a lot of these people would be considered insane by definition, but the courts have higher standards and need a lot of proof for this. Insanity pleas rarely work.

I don't understand prison mentality. I swear they are all crazy. What gives any of them the right to judge others on their crimes? Killing is still killing by an definition. It's still taking A LIFE. Doesn't matter if it's a man, woman or a child. But they sit there, delusional & dictating what crime is acceptable/not acceptable. Mentally disturbed they all are. Pot vs Kettle, really.

I've heard of stories like that on Lockup. These guys who've murdered people (gang members for an example), they go to prison & suddenly, they think they are better than some wife/child killer. It makes zero sense to me.

I think it's control issues. Since they no longer have any real control, so they'd rather find something else to feel in control about...like dictating who should be allowed to be around them. The wardens have no choice but to protect the "lower" scum hence adhering to the other's commands, indirectly. Control restored.

They should be around all type of scum. Why be choosy?

Posted by Nemesis
don't the courts rule out insanity in able to apply the death penalty? i think this is what they aim for especially in regards to serial killers.

i think there are a lot of tricks behind the scenes when it comes to this sane/insane rule.


clearly, one has to be out of touch of reality - as we know or perceive it - to commit the crimes they did.

I think there is some truth to that. Although, the justice system will try to fall under the guise of "criminally" insane, which uses a different measure than the "moral" idea of sanity that the average citizen would use:

Cognitive (Criminal) Insanity: a defendant must have been so impaired by a mental disease or defect at the time of the act that he or she did not know the nature or quality of the act, or, if the defendant did know the nature or quality of the act, he or she did not know that the act was wrong.

I think planning and carrying out a crime and covering it up demonstrates knowledge of right and wrong.

At the end of the day, the nurture vs nature debate has yet to be answered, but society still needs to separate (and punish) the people that are making a conscious choice to do something vs. the people that are committing crimes simply because they were born with a chemical imbalance (e.g. schizophrenic) and their brain instructed them to behave in a particular manner. In other words, if science doesn't confirm that it exists, then you??re criminally responsible and "should" be punished for your crime.

Yes, I would question one's moral compass if they patiently plan and carry out a heinous crime over and over again. However, what this comes down to is accountability. Without a scientific explanation, one has to ask should one get psychiatrist help/support because they had a horrible upbringing and decided to say "f*ck what society says, I'm going to do what I want" or should they receive the death penalty/life in prison? If we are to say anyone that commits a heinous crime in "insane" we are saying the former should occur because if someone is in fact afflicted with a serious condition they cannot be punished like everyone else.

It all boils down to hypnotism to me and being in a different consciousness, some people are born half asleep maybe lol??_.

.I have a good friend who is a psychopath and will screw anyone over to get what he wants I call him the magician because he can make resources appear at the click of a finger! if he wants it (and there is nothing this guy doesn't want) he will sweet talk people into giving it!

but its so much more than sweet talk it really is like he is hypnotising them, if he doesn't get what he wants look out even if its a $ 3 box of cookies he will go apeshit lol??_I didn't buy him a box of cookies once and we were all in a car and he was screaming at me in the the car and my laughing wasn't helping at all it was making him worse and the driver got so scared she stopped the car on the highway (no one was on the highway at the time). just so he could calm down??_he gets aggressive when he doesn't get his sugar hit.

I have been in 1 fight with him because things didn't go his way and I broke his nose with my forehead and we've been friends ever since??_.its probably because whatever it is doesn't work on me and he trusts me because I give him advice on how to be moral and I calm him and bring him back down to earth

Its really interesting to see him work his magic although he's getting older and losing his touch??_.he will look at you really intensely and just run his mouth with so much powerful intend behind his words that you will feel compelled to do whatever he says and I guess its a trick you learn from a young age, when you convince yourself that you are immortal or above other people and see them as lambs then you have a way of commanding them??_??_

Doesn't work on me though the lights are never on upstairs lol

I think its a cocktail with different measurements of narcism, egomania, sociopathic, ego manic and psychopathic tendencies??_..all this and having a developed reptilian / impulsive brain can bring forth a certain psychopath..

Its not about sane, insane its about lookin at where they were in their lives during the time they commited the crime.

Posted by LovesickCancer
But these people are master manipulators. Everything they say or do is for their own gain.

Until the lie detector is perfected you cannot take their word or study them exclusively. They will never allow you truly into their heads.

Of course they've gotten to the level where they no longer see good or bad, but when they started their deviant behaviour they did. Maybe no-one told them they were wrong, or they never had to face the consequences for their behaviour, or the consequences for minor bad behaviour was unfairly harsh, so they never saw the differences.

They have their own means of justifying their actions hence they will never be remorseful as they don't believe they're at fault.

Idk-- I'm of the belief that some people are born that way.

That isn't to say that some criminals are not a product of their upbringing; I think there are plenty.

But some docs/scientists believe that symptoms of psychopathy show in very early childhood.


Ex. here-- link.