StoicGoat
@StoicGoat
13 Years1,000+ Posts
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DXP Survivor 2 Part V
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As previously, the audience is welcome to comment in this thread.
I'm pretty sure there are some things that are just considered right and wrong intrinsically to the human condition... liking taking the life of another without it being self-defense.
We don't give capital punishment to all those who take the lives of others. I come from a state that is capital punishment happy... -_- but even here we don't be killing all the murderers their are out there. It really depends on the state and the nature of the crime committed. I pretty sure if they can prove premeditation and the fact that you are actually sane you are probably looking at the electric chair unless your motives can be put into question. The number of murders and the gravity of the murders are also taken into consideration. Capital punishment is a BIG DEAL and they don't just kill anyone. And even after you are put on death row it could take years before that lethal injection needle ever pricks your arm.
go dimpz fire up! and I thought you were going to bed ages ago!
*gets the tranq gun out*
*gets the tranq gun out*
Posted by feb16aqua
So are we voting someone off like usual here when the debate is over? And aquasnoz is not participating in this right?
Aquasnoz is sitting out this debate. There will be a vote after the next challenge.
Yeah Stoic, I can't contribute to this thread till I get home this evening which is roughly the time I got home last evening when I picked morality. So unless there is an extension..... That is about all I can offer to this debate till later this evening.
I still think that ....no matter what that guy in that article has to say dimplez.... He is just one man.. with one opinion... No body has the right to cut a life short without reason. IN FACT his whole argument is mute if there is no body alive to freely think since someone somewhere, a "freethinker" if you will, decided that mankind should no longer exist and sets off all the nuclear bombs around the world with a computer virus hack or w/e. The 'Free thinker' just thought that mankind was an infection on this planet just depleting it of it's natural resources without giving anything in return, and the result being the eventual death of the planet. The Free thinker decided that since we were still at least contained on this on small planet that it be better if we were annihilated before our race (the virus) could spread to other parts of the galaxy.....
I'm pretty sure that guys one argument is mute in site of that.
I'm pretty sure that guys one argument is mute in site of that.
LoL ....not 'mute' haha moot*
If what you all are arguing were true then people wouldn't have even lived under any moral code of some sort in primitive societies. No matter what state in time you look too..... People I'm sure very rarely thought it was good to kill each other... logically it makes no sense to just kill to kill. There is no benefit in killing others of your kind without a good reason. If you killed all those of your kind...there is no one to help you hunt...herd the sheep... collect wood for a fire...put up tents..etc.
I'm pretty sure even share the mother of your children was probably looked down upon in most primitive tribes as well. I mean the only place this immoral argument could ever be found to have existence at all would be with isolationists.
I'm pretty sure even share the mother of your children was probably looked down upon in most primitive tribes as well. I mean the only place this immoral argument could ever be found to have existence at all would be with isolationists.
If anything ......morality is a way of living amongst each other. If you wanna survive on your own....I guess your free to do whatever the hell you like. And morality does not stop free thinking EVER. How do I know you might ask? No one controls how I think.. Only I control how I think. Trust in that one.
True Feb we all have tendencies to do what others might find quote on quote 'BAD' 'IMMORAL' ... BUT I still think you will be hard pressed to find anyone on the planet who is sane and thinks killing others for the sport of killing is okay.
Posted by xdimplez
lets go back in time shall we? cover a bit of history
well ill cover it in a bit...my pt needs me
Demps you don't wanna do this..... If you show how the free thinkers have shaped society then... you would only devalue your source further by proving that Moral society has not hindered free thinking and that is why we have progressed as society and have enjoyed all our technological advances as well.
PS-Dirty South & Alesso - City Of Dreams (Original Mix)
Dat song so tight haha 🙂
Dat song so tight haha 🙂
WELL.... I think whether someone shows up to work on time or not is more of cultural manners or what you might consider polite. I would never think of showing up on time or not to work as a question of someone's morals and I think anyone who does is deluded. It is pretty rude though to always be late to work. I think it is better judge the question of morality in things that have a more definite impact on how we can possibly function together as a society.... LIKE stealing something someone else has worked hard for to earn...just because you envy that with which they had. If people just steal from each other.... whats the point of freely thinking. NOT only will what you possibly earn from it have the possibility of being stolen from you at any moment BUT also if you don't care about posessions what is the point of helping out others who only think of themselves I would never share any idea I ever had with the world if we all are only thinking of ourselves.... and in turn we would be nowhere. We would all be cavemen.
Posted by xdimplez
thomas paine, politcal writer
This remarkable political philosopher and freethinker influenced the Founding Fathers of the American Revolution and the French Revolution. Paine condemned the practice of slavery in his "African Slavery in America" and published his most famous work, "Common Sense" in 1776 just six months before the issuance of the Declaration of Independence. He also wrote "Rights of Man," "Age of Reason," and "The American Crisis."
Thomas Jefferson, scientist, statesman, and 3rd President of the U.S. (1743-1826):
American revolutionary leader, scientist, skeptic, political philosopher, and third president of the United States. The freethinker Jefferson expressed exponents of the Enlightenment that emphasized human reason, science, and education. He established the University of Virginia and authored the Declaration of Independence, and the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom.
Robert Green Ingersoll, agnostic writer and thinker (1833-1899):
American lawyer, freethinker and orator, known as the Great Agnostic because of his antireligious views. He wrote many antiorthodox lectures and his talks scandalized the clergy.
ngersoll's eloquent attacks against religious superstitions and why they present a danger provide fuel and oxygen to reason.
If we could not freely think.... none of these men would have ever accomplished what they did. Just because society says no never stopped anyone now did it? I will always do what I think is right no matter what people think or society try's to tell me is right or wrong. No one will ever have that kind of power over me.
And just because there was slavery.... I'm sure there were many who were opposed to it.. even if secretly because it is ..just not right. Period. Anyone can look at it and see that. And there are some who just like Thomas Paine who were not secretive about their opinions and voiced them.. because it is intrinsically immoral.
For those interested in the braille, this is how I checked to make sure it could be translated before challenging you with it.
The first image is the grid I added to the braille characters to make them easier to identify as I was translating. The second is the actual translation in Excel with corresponding alphanumeric cell references. You'll have to blow the Excel up so you can read it. I did the entire translation with Grade 2 braille dictionaries and examples I found via my perusal of the interwebz. I will confess I was unable to find a single source that had all of the reference material needed.
There isn't actually nearly as much leeway in the translation with the Grade 2 translator as it might at first appear. The basic message you should have ended up with is below. There were a number of additional letters/words/punctuation the translator inserted of its own accord due to what it was asked to translate (in the shaded cells). All of the unshaded cells should have been fairly easy - labour-intensive, but easy. If you just wrote everything down as you worked through it and then took a step back, what needed to be culled became rather obvious. The spreadsheet below is one possible version of what you would be left with after translating and culling the extra characters/punctuation.
The first image is the grid I added to the braille characters to make them easier to identify as I was translating. The second is the actual translation in Excel with corresponding alphanumeric cell references. You'll have to blow the Excel up so you can read it. I did the entire translation with Grade 2 braille dictionaries and examples I found via my perusal of the interwebz. I will confess I was unable to find a single source that had all of the reference material needed.
There isn't actually nearly as much leeway in the translation with the Grade 2 translator as it might at first appear. The basic message you should have ended up with is below. There were a number of additional letters/words/punctuation the translator inserted of its own accord due to what it was asked to translate (in the shaded cells). All of the unshaded cells should have been fairly easy - labour-intensive, but easy. If you just wrote everything down as you worked through it and then took a step back, what needed to be culled became rather obvious. The spreadsheet below is one possible version of what you would be left with after translating and culling the extra characters/punctuation.
This debate is so subjective I find it hard for me to even try to use a source lol!
I'm pretty sure never reading the bible or knowing of GOD or our advanced society... You isolate two or three people on one planet. They will treasure each others very existence for they are the only of their kind there. When one dies it would be quite a horrific event and I doubt seriously any of them would consider killing one of them to be right.....
I'm pretty sure never reading the bible or knowing of GOD or our advanced society... You isolate two or three people on one planet. They will treasure each others very existence for they are the only of their kind there. When one dies it would be quite a horrific event and I doubt seriously any of them would consider killing one of them to be right.....
Posted by xdimplezPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
This debate is so subjective I find it hard for me to even try to use a source lol!
I'm pretty sure never reading the bible or knowing of GOD or our advanced society... You isolate two or three people on one planet. They will treasure each others very existence for they are the only of their kind there. When one dies it would be quite a horrific event and I doubt seriously any of them would consider killing one of them to be right.....
well during the salem with trials, when people were falsely accusing people...those who punished believed in the theory "guilty before proven innocent" . they killed people whom they just thought were witches without any actual hard core proof...but still killed them because they thought it was right, that in regards..they were morally justified
it wasnt until the advancements of technology came around, we found out that the accusers were not really seeing witches...they were just trippin on ergot. but back then...they thought the killings were morally just
click to expand
And no one thinks this is right... even back then there were those who didn't.
Posted by xdimplezPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
WELL.... I think whether someone shows up to work on time or not is more of cultural manners or what you might consider polite. I would never think of showing up on time or not to work as a question of someone's morals and I think anyone who does is deluded. It is pretty rude though to always be late to work. I think it is better judge the question of morality in things that have a more definite impact on how we can possibly function together as a society.... LIKE stealing something someone else has worked hard for to earn...just because you envy that with which they had. If people just steal from each other.... whats the point of freely thinking. NOT only will what you possibly earn from it have the possibility of being stolen from you at any moment BUT also if you don't care about posessions what is the point of helping out others who only think of themselves I would never share any idea I ever had with the world if we all are only thinking of ourselves.... and in turn we would be nowhere. We would all be cavemen.
but please define in your example what is stealing
because if there was a candidate who worked hard, and did better then the person who is in the current job position, and later on got handed that persons job. is that considered stealing? because in other peoples eyes, they may sat that the new candidate got the position fair and square
click to expand
That is such a grey area... not even really what I was talking about because the other person did not even 'own' the job to have it stolen. I mean more like you have 'money', 'your car', etc. I'm sure their can always be extenuating circumstances but to take those things just because you feel like is never conducive to living together in a constructive society.
Posted by xdimplez
to go back to the original statment...humans are born innately immoral...it isnt until they are born and defined by society do we carve our actions and thoughts to be moral. but like i had stated before..whose to say is right
because looking back at our history, things that are dubbed immoral have become moral. things that were once thought wrong have become right. and vice versa
humans by itself...aer mutable
Humans have never been mutable about killing other without a reason...killing just for the sake of killing. Even in the Salem witch trials they were killing those people because they thought they were witches.
Posted by xdimplez
yo nacho cheese...where are our other team members at? the more we argue...the more we show that we are a potential thread and risk being voted off lol
Ha! good point! How have we lasted so long!
Posted by StoicGoat
For those interested in the braille, this is how I checked to make sure it could be translated before challenging you with it.
The first image is the grid I added to the braille characters to make them easier to identify as I was translating. The second is the actual translation in Excel with corresponding alphanumeric cell references. You'll have to blow the Excel up so you can read it. I did the entire translation with Grade 2 braille dictionaries and examples I found via my perusal of the interwebz. I will confess I was unable to find a single source that had all of the reference material needed.
There isn't actually nearly as much leeway in the translation with the Grade 2 translator as it might at first appear. The basic message you should have ended up with is below. There were a number of additional letters/words/punctuation the translator inserted of its own accord due to what it was asked to translate (in the shaded cells). All of the unshaded cells should have been fairly easy - labour-intensive, but easy. If you just wrote everything down as you worked through it and then took a step back, what needed to be culled became rather obvious. The spreadsheet below is one possible version of what you would be left with after translating and culling the extra characters/punctuation.
Damn judging from that it would seem that all Snoz did not do is literally quote a bible verse and .... I mean if the message of the verse did not matter... because the book doesn't matter why even quote the bible lol ^.^ .... or did the book matter so hard to understand that hodge podge of english traped even in the excell picture you got there haha!
NO idea how I ended up in the middle of your quote w/e
I may have over-reached a bit on the difficulty level with the last challenge. Just a bit.
Ahh yes sweet ambiance*
Posted by StoicGoat
I may have over-reached a bit on the difficulty level with the last challenge. Just a bit.
Hey man all good... obviously snoz got like 90% of that. I'm sure he scoured the internet for it too lol! Unless he has experience with blind people already.
Posted by xdimplez
what would you do for a klondike bar?
I'd sing .. why not I already did on dxp after all.
however,
I most vehemently WOULD NOT KILL 🙂
Finding it hard to be just any version of Immoral ?
Posted by robyn808Posted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by StoicGoat
I may have over-reached a bit on the difficulty level with the last challenge. Just a bit.
Hey man all good... obviously snoz got like 90% of that. I'm sure he scoured the internet for it too lol! Unless he has experience with blind people already.
No!
click to expand
LOL!
Posted by feb16aqua
Morals are a learned response. We learn them through environmental conditioning. What we experience in life, we put in our toolbox of potential human behaviors. Throughout life, we choose which tools to use based on our emotional and moral attitude. Different environments promote different moral propensities. A child living in poverty has different moral behavior than a child living in luxury. The morals that we teach our children today directly determines their behavior towards us tomorrow. Everything that we are as individuals, in one way or another, is a learned response from society-at-large. As individuals, we are what our eyes, ears, and personal experiences, learned in the journey of life. We as individuals are the sum of our experiences with others.
Check out this link nyaa.
http://epluribusunum56.com/morals.html<BR>
This argument assumes that a child would never grow to learn the value of their own life as they got older without a teacher.
Do you think you would not understand that without a teacher?
And if you think you would....
What makes you think you would not understand the value of another human being's life?
Look Satan girl I think you have no room in this discussion.... you are after all biased 😉
The debate was is morality innate to the human condition or is it aberrant....to the animal condition seen in the world. But then let me ask you this... for stoic's example he gives the animals survival instincts no? BUT all animals are taught by their parents to how to kill and hunt for their survival. If they were never taught... do you think they would so easily know what to eat and how to survive? You know once you domesticate a bird or a cat it becomes interesting how they suddenly do not know how to get food without relying on you suddenly.
What is it to be 'animalistic'?
Posted by feb16aquaPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
What is it to be 'animalistic'?
a trait or mode of behaviour typical of animals
click to expand
Yes but it can be argued just as well.... that what we all consider innately animal... would not be without the mother animal their to teach her young how to be.
I mean how do you explain people having wild animals as pets ^.^
Posted by xdimplezPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
I mean how do you explain people having wild animals as pets ^.^
well once a person takes on a 'wild animal' and is able to teach them how to do things a certain way, to accomodate how they live...then they become domesticated
animal= immoral ..man teaches animal to adapt and live a certain way...then animal becomes moral, or a definition of moral
click to expand
You think a wild animal would go at and kill anything without it's mother to teach it how to do that?
go out*
damn the page breaks >.
Alright I'm going to list examples of animals that die without their mother to teach them how to survive.
"If there is a litter of kittens, it's difficult to trap and relocate the entire family. If only the mother is trapped and removed, the young are left behind to die of dehydration and starvation."
(http://www.ci.the-colony.tx.us/Depts/pd/AnimalCtrl/bobcats.htm)<BR>
"Mortality in dependent kittens is often caused by the death of their mother for any of the above reasons; the orphans die of starvation or, without knowledge of proper behavior, become "problem cats" that are subsequently removed from the population."
(http://www.cougarfund.org/naturalhistory/familylife/)<BR>
"If there is a litter of kittens, it's difficult to trap and relocate the entire family. If only the mother is trapped and removed, the young are left behind to die of dehydration and starvation."
(http://www.ci.the-colony.tx.us/Depts/pd/AnimalCtrl/bobcats.htm)<BR>
"Mortality in dependent kittens is often caused by the death of their mother for any of the above reasons; the orphans die of starvation or, without knowledge of proper behavior, become "problem cats" that are subsequently removed from the population."
(http://www.cougarfund.org/naturalhistory/familylife/)<BR>
Posted by feb16aquaPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
Alright I'm going to list examples of animals that die without their mother to teach them how to survive.
"If there is a litter of kittens, it's difficult to trap and relocate the entire family. If only the mother is trapped and removed, the young are left behind to die of dehydration and starvation."
(http://www.ci.the-colony.tx.us/Depts/pd/AnimalCtrl/bobcats.htm)<BR>
"Mortality in dependent kittens is often caused by the death of their mother for any of the above reasons; the orphans die of starvation or, without knowledge of proper behavior, become "problem cats" that are subsequently removed from the population."
(http://www.cougarfund.org/naturalhistory/familylife/)<BR>
Sure, but what is your overall point?
click to expand
My point is you claim that humans would act like how animals would act without someone to teach them how to act. Yet, how do you know how an animal would act without it's own mother to teach it as well.... That's my point.
Posted by feb16aquaPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
My point is you claim that humans would act like how animals would act without someone to teach them how to act. Yet, how do you know how an animal would act without it's own mother to teach it as well.... That's my point.
Look at the girl who was raised by wolves, or countless other stories like that.
Listen, that is just a detail. You are supposed to be advocating innate morality, which you have yet to do 😉
click to expand
Would you stop being an Aqua!
Here is the thing Feb... you are assuming that not being taught to be moral = immorality. How do you know you aren't born with the precious importance of your life? IF you life was insignificant.... why breath... why eat.... why try to learn how to do anything?
Ahh yes a good point that one of my fellow Aquas pointed out...
IF we are in fact born immoral.... how did we ever come to have quote on quote 'morals'.
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that a life is precious?
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that love is desirable and to be cherished?
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that stealing that which is not ours is not right?
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that killing without just cause is not right?
Furthermore why is killing even when their is just cause can still be disturbing, frightening,...unnerving?
IF we are in fact born immoral.... how did we ever come to have quote on quote 'morals'.
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that a life is precious?
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that love is desirable and to be cherished?
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that stealing that which is not ours is not right?
HOW did we ever come to the conclusion that killing without just cause is not right?
Furthermore why is killing even when their is just cause can still be disturbing, frightening,...unnerving?
And at the end of the day I can post threads to the contrary of what you all have argued. This link at the bottom is to a study done at Yale University on infants as young as 3 months old and the results showed that even then they show tendencies towards what is 'right' and not what is 'wrong'. There is even a video from the study being talked about on 60 min.
So, all I have to say is
TAKE THAT UP YOUR FANNY YOU IMMORAL HARLETS!!!
So, all I have to say is
TAKE THAT UP YOUR FANNY YOU IMMORAL HARLETS!!!
Posted by feb16aquaPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
And at the end of the day I can post threads to the contrary of what you all have argued. This link at the bottom is to a study done at Yale University on infants as young as 3 months old and the results showed that even then they show tendencies towards what is 'right' and not what is 'wrong'. There is even a video from the study being talked about on 60 min.
So, all I have to say is
TAKE THAT UP YOUR FANNY YOU IMMORAL HARLETS!!!
Who are you talking to right there? **summons the lioness from her latest take down and kill**
click to expand
Don't try to act innocent you DEVIL you!
You posted your links to try to support innate immorality from birth don't try to deny NOW!
I'm just showing I can do just the same! Mine is based off a recent study too.... and we can do that all day and where does it lead us?
I think ultimately we would not be were we are today with out this just being the center of what it means to be a human... These morals they shape us... they define us... We are of a higher order of thinking than animals anyways and to try and compare us to them is an insult to our own intelligence.
Posted by xygeneration
Do you only think about yourself or humanity?
Did you seriously just ask an Aquarian this question?
Posted by xygeneration
Good topic stoic!
Thank you 🙂
It was one of those questions that doesn't really have a definite answer. What are your thoughts?
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As with the previous debates, the winning team will be determined based on how well you stake your position, defend it against attack, and support it logically and with empirical evidence. The players of the winning team will each receive the full debate points. The debate will end 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds after the time stamp on this post.
Good luck!