LibraSid
@LibraSid
15 Years1,000+ PostsLibra
Comments: 0 · Posts: 4581 · Topics: 75
Something I never understood...
"There shouldn't be a bible... God told them that if they ate the fruit, they'd die. Why didn't they? God either lied or he was wrong. Neither of these are supposed to be possible.
Once they ate the fruit they were supposed to die and the story should have ended there.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do!"
I think the original plan was that Adam and Eve (man/humans)were given the garden to live in forever.they were created for eternity at the time....in other words,humanity would not die,but be eternal like God.
it was conditional,and the one condition was trust.He told them not to eat from the tree,and although he had given them this beautiful garden and free reign over the whole thing...they broke his trust and dis-obeyed him.
So when he told them they would die...he did not mean right then...he meant man/humanity in general would have an expiration date.no one would live forever now.
If you think about it...it was greed that killed them,and us.
greed and a lack of respect and honor.the same thing that continues to destroy the world.
Once they ate the fruit they were supposed to die and the story should have ended there.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do!"
I think the original plan was that Adam and Eve (man/humans)were given the garden to live in forever.they were created for eternity at the time....in other words,humanity would not die,but be eternal like God.
it was conditional,and the one condition was trust.He told them not to eat from the tree,and although he had given them this beautiful garden and free reign over the whole thing...they broke his trust and dis-obeyed him.
So when he told them they would die...he did not mean right then...he meant man/humanity in general would have an expiration date.no one would live forever now.
If you think about it...it was greed that killed them,and us.
greed and a lack of respect and honor.the same thing that continues to destroy the world.
perhaps they were dead to him this from an non believer
Almost every bible story has an Egyptian origin....
Trouble is most discussions start with the bible...
The paper" The Generations of the Heavens and of the Earth: Egyptian Deities in the Garden of Eden
Presented at the annual meeting of the American Research Center in Egypt, St. Louis 1996
Gary Greenberg" discusses the origins of the adam and eve story.
"The biblical Creation stories, from the dawn of Creation through Noah??s Flood, derive from Egyptian cosmogony, more specifically, the Theban doctrine of Creation"
"Observe the sequence of events (in the Theban doctrine of Creation): The chief deity gives a direct command to Heaven and Earth. They violate the order and as a penalty the chief deity makes child birth a difficult act for the female. Subsequently she gives birth to three sons. As we know from other Egyptian myths, one of those three sons, Set, kills one of the other sons, Osiris.
Genesis has a similar plot. God gives Adam and Eve (or Earth and Heaven) a direct order. They disobey that order and one of the punishments inflicted includes difficulties with child birth. Subsequently, Eve gives birth to three named sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth, one of whom kills one of the other brothers. Also, Eve is identified in the bible as the —mother of all living??, an identification similar to Nut's designation as mother of the gods. So, as with Nut, Eve disobeys God, is punished with difficulty in childbirth, has three male sons, one of whom kills one of the others, and she is thought of as the first mother. Interestingly, the Hebrew name Seth and the Egyptian name Set are philologically identical and both children are born third in sequence"
Trouble is most discussions start with the bible...
The paper" The Generations of the Heavens and of the Earth: Egyptian Deities in the Garden of Eden
Presented at the annual meeting of the American Research Center in Egypt, St. Louis 1996
Gary Greenberg" discusses the origins of the adam and eve story.
"The biblical Creation stories, from the dawn of Creation through Noah??s Flood, derive from Egyptian cosmogony, more specifically, the Theban doctrine of Creation"
"Observe the sequence of events (in the Theban doctrine of Creation): The chief deity gives a direct command to Heaven and Earth. They violate the order and as a penalty the chief deity makes child birth a difficult act for the female. Subsequently she gives birth to three sons. As we know from other Egyptian myths, one of those three sons, Set, kills one of the other sons, Osiris.
Genesis has a similar plot. God gives Adam and Eve (or Earth and Heaven) a direct order. They disobey that order and one of the punishments inflicted includes difficulties with child birth. Subsequently, Eve gives birth to three named sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth, one of whom kills one of the other brothers. Also, Eve is identified in the bible as the —mother of all living??, an identification similar to Nut's designation as mother of the gods. So, as with Nut, Eve disobeys God, is punished with difficulty in childbirth, has three male sons, one of whom kills one of the others, and she is thought of as the first mother. Interestingly, the Hebrew name Seth and the Egyptian name Set are philologically identical and both children are born third in sequence"
Posted by BellatheBull
"There shouldn't be a bible... God told them that if they ate the fruit, they'd die. Why didn't they? God either lied or he was wrong. Neither of these are supposed to be possible.
Once they ate the fruit they were supposed to die and the story should have ended there.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do!"
I think the original plan was that Adam and Eve (man/humans)were given the garden to live in forever.they were created for eternity at the time....in other words,humanity would not die,but be eternal like God.
it was conditional,and the one condition was trust.He told them not to eat from the tree,and although he had given them this beautiful garden and free reign over the whole thing...they broke his trust and dis-obeyed him.
So when he told them they would die...he did not mean right then...he meant man/humanity in general would have an expiration date.no one would live forever now.
If you think about it...it was greed that killed them,and us.
greed and a lack of respect and honor.the same thing that continues to destroy the world.
🙂 I agree. What kind of punishment would it be for just them to die? The end. Game over. ?
They represented humanity. A punishment for humanity wouldn't mean just them dying.
Also, I don't take much of anything in the bible literally.
I don't think I even buy that there was a "garden" as we understand it. Or even "Adam and Eve" in the form of just one man and one woman he first created from nothing. Creation is not so simple. (Look at childbirth) This is why I have no hang ups with scientific theories such as evolution. Who says it didn't happen that way?
Everything in the bible is meant to teach you something. IMO *none* of the stories are literally what happened. They're just stories. They are told the way they are so we can understand.
Think about when you try to explain something to a child, ie: like how babies are made. You start simple. VERY simple.
God couldn't just present us with all these moral issues and expect us to understand. He had to tell us stories in which we could relate the world around us to understand the underlying message.
You want to know/understand God? Look around you.
*steps down from pulpit* lol
The tree, symbol of knowledge, gives them self-awareness when Eve eats the apple (they both knew they were naked). Innocence is lost and self-awareness takes precedence. We are now conscious of our imminent demise unlike animals. How should we live with this new freedom of thought? And the futility of life. Why should we care how we live if we will only die within a short span of time as time is defined. How do we deal with our impulses & 'evil' thoughts? And why should life have any meaning since we all will end up in dust anyway. Philosophers have struggled with these questions for centuries. The story of Adam & Eve is a parable to explain our consciousness and our freedom of choice between good & evil.
Because we are conscious, we need to make sense of life. Whether it be by religion or science. We do not just react, we create the lives we live. The Bible is considered a guide of how to live well. To accept your eventual demise and find not only a sense of purpose in living but joyfulness and knowledge that you as an individual can leave a legacy that can positively or negatively influence future generations. The choice is yours.
Because we are conscious, we need to make sense of life. Whether it be by religion or science. We do not just react, we create the lives we live. The Bible is considered a guide of how to live well. To accept your eventual demise and find not only a sense of purpose in living but joyfulness and knowledge that you as an individual can leave a legacy that can positively or negatively influence future generations. The choice is yours.
Elephants are known to comprehend death, have self-awareness in their family roles (as do lions, whales, and monkeys) and display emotions.
Check this out...Elephants Mourning
The Neanderthal is an extinct member of the Homo genus that is known from Pleistocene specimens found in Europe and parts of western and central Asia. Neanderthals are either classified as a subspecies (or race) of modern humans (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis). They left us their tools and buried their dead with ceremonial items...clearly they were self-aware. They probably had their own version of adam and eve, too.
The need to be "above" animals is rooted in the fact we needed(a.k.a. killed and used)them to survive. Religious belief systems have to support our dominion over animals, and thus we distance ourselves from them, even though we share 96% DNA with chimps. I agree the adam/eve story is a parable written by bronze-age people to explain our origins. They also thought the earth was flat.
But they did die. Not that day, but they died. As opposed to the immortality they would've had had they not disobeyed God's one, simple rule.
Death can be interpreted in different ways. In this story, it is the death of innocence. Did they die a mortal death, yes but being that they were created as human, wouldn't that be a given? Were all humans supposed to be immortal? I think not as that would have been a worse problem than death.
LibraSid, there is a very good reason why people, at large, don't get the bible, or organized religion.
The god that people pray to ... isn't the Almighty.
The angel fell to earth, not hell .. the bible makes no sense because it is based around fear, it is in place to make a person Obey, blindly out of fear of what will happen .. becauce the fallen angel that created this world doens't know how to operate by love.
People say .. if god were real, then how could he let the innocent suffer and the answer is simple .. god wouldn't, but the dark lord would.
The other day I was watching Alice in Wonderland and the Red Queen decides she would benefit more from ruling with hatred rather than love .. because through fear and intimidation, she could force her subjects to obey her.
The Almighty God, the one who didn't create this world isn't concerned about your body because it is only a vessel to house your true being .. your body means nothing, it is not who you are.
You could be nailed to a cross and the Almighty still won't notice .... because your body doesn't mean anything. Now, to the false god that everybody prays to who is referred to as the Creator would definitely care about a body being nailed to a cross ... why he would even use this fear tactic of a hellish death for all those who choose not to obey him, and he will make sure they think it's their choice, rather than a manipulation.
The Almighty god never wrote a book, nor talked to any people about writing any books.
The god that people pray to ... isn't the Almighty.
The angel fell to earth, not hell .. the bible makes no sense because it is based around fear, it is in place to make a person Obey, blindly out of fear of what will happen .. becauce the fallen angel that created this world doens't know how to operate by love.
People say .. if god were real, then how could he let the innocent suffer and the answer is simple .. god wouldn't, but the dark lord would.
The other day I was watching Alice in Wonderland and the Red Queen decides she would benefit more from ruling with hatred rather than love .. because through fear and intimidation, she could force her subjects to obey her.
The Almighty God, the one who didn't create this world isn't concerned about your body because it is only a vessel to house your true being .. your body means nothing, it is not who you are.
You could be nailed to a cross and the Almighty still won't notice .... because your body doesn't mean anything. Now, to the false god that everybody prays to who is referred to as the Creator would definitely care about a body being nailed to a cross ... why he would even use this fear tactic of a hellish death for all those who choose not to obey him, and he will make sure they think it's their choice, rather than a manipulation.
The Almighty god never wrote a book, nor talked to any people about writing any books.
Actually, the majority of people on this Earth believe in God and do practice some kind of religion.
P-Angel, where are you getting that a fallen angel (do you mean satan?) created this earth? I say satan 'cuz you refer to the dark lord & then you segue into 'Alice in Wonderland' which um, well, whatever.
Are you saying that you believe in God but that a fallen angel (satan?)created earth? There is no scientific or theological basis for this; this is your own theory? Do you know that the issue of suffering has been dealt with in theological terms?
P-Angel said, "People say .. if god were real, then how could he let the innocent suffer and the answer is simple .. god wouldn't, but the dark lord would."
It is acknowledged that there is suffering and yes, God allows it. Why? Because our life here is but a wink of an eye compared to eternity. A baby that will die soon & suffer will spend eternity in Heaven. Eternity vs 80 some odd years. Impulse vs consequences. Hmmm, ethical & moral issues? Who knew God would play a role in that?
The truth is as humans, suffering brings out the best of us, it makes us humble and forces us to help those less fortunate. We need it in order to show compassion which is in itself a great gift to both the one suffering & to those who show it. The body is not in focus in suffering only the lesson that we are more than our bodies. How this ties into Adam & Eve, we are more than what our bodies want (an apple) but the consequences of our actions lead to how it impacts our souls.
Suffering plays a significant role in our existence. Stephen Hawking would know something about this. Is he defined by his body or his brain? He could have spent his life angry at the cards that were dealt to him but he chose to develop & share his knowledge with the world which teaches those not immobile in body that we are more than our bodies. Even if Mr. Hawkings brilliance teaches us that God does not exist, he still proves that our mind/soul matters more than our physical bodies.
If Christ was willing to suffer in his body on the cross for 3 days in the most horrific way to die, it shows us that our bodies should not dictate our souls purpose. We overcome physical suffering for the bounty of our souls rewards.
P-Angel, where are you getting that a fallen angel (do you mean satan?) created this earth? I say satan 'cuz you refer to the dark lord & then you segue into 'Alice in Wonderland' which um, well, whatever.
Are you saying that you believe in God but that a fallen angel (satan?)created earth? There is no scientific or theological basis for this; this is your own theory? Do you know that the issue of suffering has been dealt with in theological terms?
P-Angel said, "People say .. if god were real, then how could he let the innocent suffer and the answer is simple .. god wouldn't, but the dark lord would."
It is acknowledged that there is suffering and yes, God allows it. Why? Because our life here is but a wink of an eye compared to eternity. A baby that will die soon & suffer will spend eternity in Heaven. Eternity vs 80 some odd years. Impulse vs consequences. Hmmm, ethical & moral issues? Who knew God would play a role in that?
The truth is as humans, suffering brings out the best of us, it makes us humble and forces us to help those less fortunate. We need it in order to show compassion which is in itself a great gift to both the one suffering & to those who show it. The body is not in focus in suffering only the lesson that we are more than our bodies. How this ties into Adam & Eve, we are more than what our bodies want (an apple) but the consequences of our actions lead to how it impacts our souls.
Suffering plays a significant role in our existence. Stephen Hawking would know something about this. Is he defined by his body or his brain? He could have spent his life angry at the cards that were dealt to him but he chose to develop & share his knowledge with the world which teaches those not immobile in body that we are more than our bodies. Even if Mr. Hawkings brilliance teaches us that God does not exist, he still proves that our mind/soul matters more than our physical bodies.
If Christ was willing to suffer in his body on the cross for 3 days in the most horrific way to die, it shows us that our bodies should not dictate our souls purpose. We overcome physical suffering for the bounty of our souls rewards.
I had forgotten I posted this after a while. I like the responses so far.
The response that they did die, that they were immortal before and this act caused them to eventually die makes a little bit of sense. The problem I have with that response is that Old Testament god was very literal. He didn't start speaking in riddles until he had a kid. That whole parenthood thing really changed "god the father" too. He went from a plague bringing, city destroying, war intervening... sociopath to a loving, sacrificing his own son to save us, forgiving, nice old man. So much for the whole "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever" huh?
Anyway, yeah the Old Testament was very literal. When god told Joshua to march around the city of Jericho and on the seventh day to march seven times and stop and blow the trumpets and the walls would fall...(details may be sketchy, it's been a while since I read it) he meant the walls would fall RIGHT THEN. Not hundreds of years later these walls of brick and mortar would eventually crumble. No, Old Testament god had a flair for the dramatic! Those walls fell instantly.
Moses says let my people go or else! When he said frogs were coming and the rivers would be blood, it happened right then. When he said the first born children would die and to smear blood over your doors to protect your family, THAT NIGHT you better had spread some blood.
I was listening to Ricky Gervais yesterday and wanted to share this as well. This is from is "Animals" show.
The response that they did die, that they were immortal before and this act caused them to eventually die makes a little bit of sense. The problem I have with that response is that Old Testament god was very literal. He didn't start speaking in riddles until he had a kid. That whole parenthood thing really changed "god the father" too. He went from a plague bringing, city destroying, war intervening... sociopath to a loving, sacrificing his own son to save us, forgiving, nice old man. So much for the whole "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever" huh?
Anyway, yeah the Old Testament was very literal. When god told Joshua to march around the city of Jericho and on the seventh day to march seven times and stop and blow the trumpets and the walls would fall...(details may be sketchy, it's been a while since I read it) he meant the walls would fall RIGHT THEN. Not hundreds of years later these walls of brick and mortar would eventually crumble. No, Old Testament god had a flair for the dramatic! Those walls fell instantly.
Moses says let my people go or else! When he said frogs were coming and the rivers would be blood, it happened right then. When he said the first born children would die and to smear blood over your doors to protect your family, THAT NIGHT you better had spread some blood.
I was listening to Ricky Gervais yesterday and wanted to share this as well. This is from is "Animals" show.
In NUNS ON THE RUN Ronny Coltrain exsplains the holy 3 father son and holy G. check it out some time.
Posted by LibraSid
I had forgotten I posted this after a while. I like the responses so far.
The response that they did die, that they were immortal before and this act caused them to eventually die makes a little bit of sense. The problem I have with that response is that Old Testament god was very literal. He didn't start speaking in riddles until he had a kid. That whole parenthood thing really changed "god the father" too. He went from a plague bringing, city destroying, war intervening... sociopath to a loving, sacrificing his own son to save us, forgiving, nice old man. So much for the whole "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever" huh?
Anyway, yeah the Old Testament was very literal. When god told Joshua to march around the city of Jericho and on the seventh day to march seven times and stop and blow the trumpets and the walls would fall...(details may be sketchy, it's been a while since I read it) he meant the walls would fall RIGHT THEN. Not hundreds of years later these walls of brick and mortar would eventually crumble. No, Old Testament god had a flair for the dramatic! Those walls fell instantly.
Moses says let my people go or else! When he said frogs were coming and the rivers would be blood, it happened right then. When he said the first born children would die and to smear blood over your doors to protect your family, THAT NIGHT you better had spread some blood.
I was listening to Ricky Gervais yesterday and wanted to share this as well. This is from is "Animals" show.
As far as God changing when he had a son....my personal understanding and belief is that the son IS God.God is 3 things...God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.He simply came as the Son,speaking in parables,and being a regular dude....because human's in general are kinda stubborn and thick skulled,and need to be taught in ways they can understand.
it's why we read stories to children....
If you tell Jimmy "Don't poke your brother wit
If you tell Jimmy "Don't poke your brother with that stick!!!!" Jimmy might stop for a time,but he's really thinking "Yeah,whatever,soon as you go back in I'm poking him even harder".
But when Jimmy's favorite cousin Jason comes over and reads him a bedtime story about another kid poking someone with a stick,and him almost losing an eye....Jimmy gets it.get it?
But when Jimmy's favorite cousin Jason comes over and reads him a bedtime story about another kid poking someone with a stick,and him almost losing an eye....Jimmy gets it.get it?
It is because a number of books proved to be problematic and were removed from the Canon of the Bible under Constantine. Also parts of Genesis were written centuries apart. I use to have a wonderful link that had all the known books that were removed despite their importance in early Christian teaching. I'm sure you can still find them on the internet. Book of Jubilees. Book of Enoch. Shephard of Hermas. etc.
I believe the Korran (although I don't know as I have never read it nor do I know much of the Islam religion) has the original creation story of the middle eastern religions in full.
I believe the Korran (although I don't know as I have never read it nor do I know much of the Islam religion) has the original creation story of the middle eastern religions in full.
For sure, LS .... below is link to a bunch of texts that were pulled with intentions of slanting perception away from the full truth ...
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
perhaps the book should start
IN THE BEGINING THE GREAT RAT SPOKE UNTO THE PEOPLE
AND THE PEOPLE SAID WTF IS THIS ALL ABOUT
THEN SHABOOM SMITE THE RAT.
IN THE BEGINING THE GREAT RAT SPOKE UNTO THE PEOPLE
AND THE PEOPLE SAID WTF IS THIS ALL ABOUT
THEN SHABOOM SMITE THE RAT.
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I started to ask this question in response to a different topic but didn't want to muddy the discussion there so I opened this thread. I have a lot of questions about the bible and religion.
My first question...
The problem I have with believing the bible is in the very beginning. When it sets up the basis of the story... if that part is wrong how can any of the rest of it be right?
You know... god is everywhere, he doesn't lie, god is love, he knows everything, etc, etc.
** puts on my preacher voice **
Ok, let's turn to Genesis chapter 2 and verses 15-17.
NKJV Genesis 2:15-17
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, —Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.??
** back to the skeptical voice **
I think everyone is familiar with this part of the story, right? God gives them one rule, don't eat the damn fruit from this tree or you will die. The snake comes along and tricks Eve into eating it and then she tricks Adam (it's always been the womans fault). Then God kicks them out of the garden and yada yada, the story goes on... THAT'S THE PROBLEM!
There shouldn't be a bible... God told them that if they ate the fruit, they'd die. Why didn't they? God either lied or he was wrong. Neither of these are supposed to be possible.
Once they ate the fruit they were supposed to die and the story should have ended there.
Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do!