If God exists...

Disclaimer: This is taken from a site and is not my personal opinion.

If God exists, then...
Following are four attempted proofs for why God does not exist, which??have been'taken from the CARM atheism discussion board.?? They have been reproduced and addressed.

First

1. If God exists he would make himself clearly known to me.
2. He has not made Himself clearly known to me.
3. Therefore God does not exist.
1. Premise:?? If God exists he would make himself clearly known to me.
1. Response:?? It is not logically necessary that if God exists he must make himself known to any individual.?? There is no "must" or "ought" or "would" to it as required by this atheist.?? If God exists, he can do what he wants; whether it is to remain undetected, or detected, to anyone.
2. Premise:?? He has not made Himself clearly known to me.
1. Response:?? This may or may not be the case.?? It may be that such a person has indeed encountered a revelation of God.?? But, if the person has a presuppositional base that excludes the existence of God, then such evidence of God would be discarded and missed.
3. Premise:?? Therefore God does not exist.
1. Response:?? Since premise one and two are not logically true, the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises.

Second
1. If God exists, then literalistic fundamental Christianity would integrate seamlessly with all natural science.
2. Literalistic, fundamental Christianity does not integrate seamlessly with all natural science.
3. Therefore God does not exist.
1. Premise:?? If God exists, then literalistic fundamental Christianity would integrate seamlessly with all natural science.
1. Response:?? This is a subjective statement, and subjective statements do not make logical proofs.?? Nevertheless, there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts scientific fact.?? Evolution of species from inorganic material is not a scientific fact.?? It is a theory.?? Science agrees with the Bible; see Scientific Accuracies in the Bible.
2. Response:?? Macro evolution is not a scientific fact.?? It is a scientific theory.
2. Premise: Literalistic, fundamental Christianity does not integrate seamlessly with all natural science.
1. Response:?? This is another subjective statement, and is over-generalized.?? Furthermore, it assumes that the Bible and Science contradict each other.?? This is not true.?? See Scientific Accuracies in the Bible.
3. Premise: Therefore God does not exist.
1. Response: Since premise one and two are subjective statements that are not true in and of themselves, there is no logical reason to require the conclusion, and it is still possible that God exists.
Third

Third
1. If God exists there would be convincing proofs of his existence.
2. There are no convincing proofs of his existence.
3. Therefore God does not exist.
1. Premise: If God exists there would be convincing proofs of his existence.
2. Response: This is not a logical necessity.?? To say there would be convincing proofs of His existence is an unfounded statement.?? If God exists, he may or may not choose to provide sufficient proof for his existence.?? ??The Bible teaches us that God works through people and history, and that there is evidence for his existence.?? But people dispose of the evidence due to the hardness of their hearts, i.e., their presuppositions that negate God's existence.
3. Response: ??It may also be that there are convincing proofs of His existence, but people choose to ignore them, explain them away, or are not aware of them.
4. Finally, the premise admits the possibility of proofs of God's existence.?? But since all proofs cannot be known by any one person, it is possible that there are proofs that exist??but are not known.
4. Premise: There are no convincing proofs of his existence.
1. Response:?? This is an opinion since the word "convincing" is included.?? For some, there is convincing proof of God's existence.?? That is why this is a subjective statement, an opinion.?? Because it is subjective, it is not a proof.
5. Premise: Therefore God does not exist.
1. Response:?? Therefore, because of the subjective nature of the alleged proof, this attempt does not disprove God's existence.

Fourth

1. If God exists in the real world there would be a coherent definition of Him.
2. There is no coherent definition of God.
3. Therefore God does not exist outside the human mind.
1. Premise: If God exists in the real world there would be a coherent definition of Him.
1. Response: "Coherent definition" is not defined.?? Therefore, it is not possible to sufficiently respond to the statement since there is not enough information with which to draw logical conclusions.?? ??Many things exist in the world which are not defined because they have not yet been discovered.?? They do not suddenly exist just because they are then discovered and defined.?? Therefore, existence is independent of definition, and whether or not God is defined properly does not mean he does or does not exist.
2. Premise: There is no coherent definition of God.
1. Response:?? Depending on what is meant by "coherent definition of God," this statement may or may not be true.—?But since no meaning is given to the statement, logically necessary conclusions cannot be drawn.??Furthermore, to say there is no "coherent definition of God" may be presumptuous, since the person cannot know all things to know whether or not there is a coherent definition of God.?? In other words, he cannot say there is no "coherent definition of God" because he does not know all definitions of God.
3. Premise: Therefore God does not exist outside the human mind.
1. Response: The conclusion does not follow from the premise since a thing defined does not make it real or not real, and also because all definitions of God are not known by the critic so as to make a logical assertion.

If there is a GOD why would he care what happens to one of his exparments?

Therefore God does not exist outside the human mind.

Nor, is it suppose to ... the rest is an illusion

That's what you call a great dream !!!!!

One so good, you just want to fantasize about how good it was !!!!

Posted by james tate
If there is a GOD why would he care what happens to one of his exparments?

If you conducted an experiment wouldn't you be curious to know the results?

There will never be definitive proof of God and alternately there is no proof that God does not exist. It all boils down to faith.

We must therefore distinguish between the philosophical question of whether God exists and the individual's relationship to the same question, a situation in which each and every man is utterly alone. Fundamental questions such as these can only be approached through faith. According to Kierkegaard, things we know through reason, or knowledge are totally unimportant.

How does that apply you ask?

2+2=4. We can be certain of that. It's an example of 'reasoned truth' that every philosopher since Descartes had talked about. But is it something we ponder over when we are dying? Not at all. Truths like those can be both 'objective' and 'general', but they are nevertheless totally immaterial to each man's existence.

So what about faith?

You can never know if a person forgives you when you have wronged them. Nor can you know if a person truly loves you yet it is an essentially important question to you. The answer is something you just have to believe or hope. But these questions are more important than the sum of the angles in a triangle is 180 degrees. You don't think about the law of cause & effect or about modes of perception when you are in the middle of your first kiss.

Kierkegaard said, "Faith is the most important factor in religious questions. If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. If I wish to preserve myself in faith I must constantly be intent upon holding fast the objective uncertainty, so as to remain out upon the deep, over seventy thousand fathoms of water, still preserving my faith."

Many have tried to prove the existence of God but if you can only content yourself with some such proof or logical argument, you suffer a loss of faith. What matters is not whether Christianity is true, but whether it is true for you.

Credo quia absurdum- I believe because it is irrational

Assyrians had "faith" in their gods and kings, as did the Egyptians, Israelites, Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc, etc, x 10,000 religions past,present, and future. How many religions exist or have existed? How many different religions are Christian?
By your very reasoning everyone is faithful, including Atheists. I have faith there is no god or gods. Guess what, I can't prove that either (and I fall into the vast minority) so "Credo quia absurdum- I believe because it is irrational" applies to me as well. It really doesn't take much research to understand how and why Christianity was formulated as a control system. A key difference is that Atheists do not have a mandate to control, oh sorry I mean convert. We simply detest the idea of the "irrationality of faith" to pervade all or any of the other human endeavors, for it will be our end, something religions seem to need to foretell as a motivational tactic.

Posted by Mistery

Posted by james tate
If there is a GOD why would he care what happens to one of his exparments?

click to expand

If you conducted an experiment wouldn't you be curious to know the results?

There will never be definitive proof of God and alternately there is no proof that God does not exist. It all boils down to faith.

We must therefore distinguish between the philosophical question of whether God exists and the individual's relationship to the same question, a situation in which each and every man is utterly alone. Fundamental questions such as these can only be approached through faith. According to Kierkegaard, things we know through reason, or knowledge are totally unimportant.

How does that apply you ask?

2+2=4. We can be certain of that. It's an example of 'reasoned truth' that every philosopher since Descartes had talked about. But is it something we ponder over when we are dying? Not at all. Truths like those can be both 'objective' and 'general', but they are nevertheless totally immaterial to each man's existence.

So what about faith?

You can never know if a person forgives you when you have wronged them. Nor can you know if a person truly loves you yet it is an essentially important question to you. The answer is something you just have to believe or hope. But these questions are more important than the sum of the angles in a triangle is 180

It's difficult being atheist or even agnostic. It takes courage. there is no promise of an afterlife. There is no man in a pulpit trading encouragements in exchange for "love gifts". There are no incredible inspirational artworks hanging in a beautiful cathedral with "heavenly" music. Hitler does not burn in hell. There is no old dude in white robes to pray to that gives us our ever changing wants and needs. My dead relatives are not waiting for me. I don't have a credo that allows me to be unethical when advantageous because of faith.

But at the same time I don't have to believe in a whole bunch of unreasonable assertions, fairy tales, and circular logic that just doesn't add up. I do not have to suppress my intellect in exchange for repetitious chants and symbolic gesture. I don't have to propagate in large numbers, on a planet that is already overpopulated, I don't have to murder or commit genocide in the name of my god. i don't feel pressure to give money to the rich and exploitative. I can see things in a rational manner, not tied up in some quasi-political dogma that I have preached to me. I can still appreciate religious art and music, in fact I can appreciate in the sometimes subtle religious doubt that is so pervasive. I can love, enjoy, celebrate ALL people religious or not!

Being an agnostic I must disagree.
I find it takes little courage.
I do agree that most wars , genocide,murders are commited in the name of a GOD or greed.

The concept of god is beyond human comprehension and understandings... how do you take this..??

A feeble mind tries to understand the God..??

Q

I would agree to a point.
If one thinks they can fully understand or comprehend or grasp the nature of God. Then no they can not.
But if one has the ability to grasp the nature of God's significance or meaning to include as an integral part (philosophy's or the scope of God) or the truth of everything which man may understand.
Then from this point of view they can grasp the basic meaning of there God.

Yes BASIC meaning of GOD..!

If you are really understood the true meaning and position of the GOD then you will be unable to talk about simply because no one would ever understand your point of view or expression of the God!

And most importantly it is your own personal understanding of the God, it is not general.

One thing I found during my Sufi practices that there are some elements out there that one shouldn't talk about it in crowd.

AGREED

Posted by Mistery
Disclaimer: This is taken from a site and is not my personal opinion.

If God exists, then...
Following are four attempted proofs for why God does not exist, which??have been'taken from the CARM atheism discussion board.?? They have been reproduced and addressed.

First

1. If God exists he would make himself clearly known to me.
2. He has not made Himself clearly known to me.
3. Therefore God does not exist.
1. Premise:?? If God exists he would make himself clearly known to me.
1. Response:?? It is not logically necessary that if God exists he must make himself known to any individual.?? There is no "must" or "ought" or "would" to it as required by this atheist.?? If God exists, he can do what he wants; whether it is to remain undetected, or detected, to anyone.
2. Premise:?? He has not made Himself clearly known to me.
1. Response:?? This may or may not be the case.?? It may be that such a person has indeed encountered a revelation of God.?? But, if the person has a presuppositional base that excludes the existence of God, then such evidence of God would be discarded and missed.
3. Premise:?? Therefore God does not exist.
1. Response:?? Since premise one and two are not logically true, the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises.

"do not tempt thy lord"

Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God - This is quoted literally from Deuteronomy 6:16. The meaning is, thou shalt not try him; or, thou shalt not, by throwing thyself into voluntary and uncommanded dangers, appeal to God for protection, or trifle with the promises made to those who are thrown into danger by his providence. It is true, indeed, that God aids those of his people who are placed by him in trial or danger; but it is not true that the promise was meant to extend to those who wantonly provoke him and trifle with the promised help. Thus, Satan, artfully using and perverting scripture, was met and repelled by scripture rightly applied.

Agreed:
But giving much thought to your statement sometimes when we discuss matters that are of an intellectual nature which requires a wide mental grasp we are alone in capacity for understanding fully.

the above message is for Q

Do you know Rumi mate..??

If my head holds one thought wise and clear, it's you.

Anything I am entirely is you.

from Rumi's Kolliyaat-e Shams-e Tabrizi

Try to understand these verses, I can not say anything clearer than that??_

The text above is about GOD.. not you..

DAMN I thought you understood me HA HA

Do you see the line between these two verses..??

No matter how I see myself, I'm nothing. Anything I am entirely is you.

Between nothingness and wholeness..??

If there is a god, then it must be an incompetent one considering the state of the world, therefore I have no faith in it. People should fix their own problems rather than rely on the magical man in the sky, or his fictional son.

DAMN I thought you understood me HA HA

Of course I do.! But not that way..!

tall dark and aries

If there is a god, then it must be an incompetent one considering the state of the world, therefore I have no faith in it. People should fix their own problems rather than rely on the magical man in the sky, or his fictional son.

World affair is a human affair and it has nothing to do with the GOD and I agree with you with his political/fictional son.

All in all.. you make the mess, you clear the mess??_why blame God..?

I believe there is a god. The problem is that humanity has drawn this picture of him. The biggest misconception about god is divine intervention. I think god does nothing more than observe. Maybe we are being tested, or here to learn something. I don't know. However they say god created man in his own image. So we need to look at humanity to understand god. The good and the bad that is in all of us.

On this we all agree the mess is ours to clean up.
to Q
cre-do quia ab sur dum est (I believe it because it is absurd)

Maybe we are being tested

God always said that we are on test. From the golden calve of the Jews, through the Jesus on the cross or last prophet Muhammad??_

It is up to the believer and followers of the Abraham religions and that's all.

But the notion and concept of GOD is something close and personal and no religions could possibly describe it.

very true, very true

Posted by Qbone
Maybe we are being tested

God always said that we are on test. From the golden calve of the Jews, through the Jesus on the cross or last prophet Muhammad??_

It is up to the believer and followers of the Abraham religions and that's all.

But the notion and concept of GOD is something close and personal and no religions could possibly describe it.

We have no idea what god has said.

Posted by Qbone
All in all.. you make the mess, you clear the mess??_why blame God..?

I'm not blaming god, I just think the Abrahamic god concept (magic man in the sky who grants wishes) is bullshit.

We have no idea what god has said.

Listen to your heart it is exactly what GOD said and accept what is right and remember one thing and one thing only. It is not about Who is wrong or right, it is about WHAT is wrong or right!

Practicing it and you'll find your GOD, PEACE, or what ever you may call it.

God I feel like a preacher now.. I hate that position..

Wishes = prayers

I was a Christian once, then an atheist, now an agnostic, and I find that there was no difference in my life quality between the three.

Posted by tall dark and aries

Posted by Qbone
All in all.. you make the mess, you clear the mess??_why blame God..?

I'm not blaming god, I just think the Abrahamic god concept (magic man in the sky who grants wishes) is bullshit.

click to expand

Yeah it is bullshit totally..!

Come into there lifes SHABOOM and show them the way to the PUB.
Some of us call it a temple .
Some of us say a six pack is a support group.
Some call it a holy exsperance.

Posted by tall dark and aries
Wishes = prayers

I was a Christian once, then an atheist, now an agnostic, and I find that there was no difference in my life quality between the three.

I don't know mate.. I am older than you are but that doesn't mean that I know any better than you do. I just happen to know more (because of my age).

My personal studies in all available paths lead me to this point that the GOD and view of the GOD is personal and it has nothing to do with the mumbojumbos of the abrahamic religions.

But he/she dose exist in other platform than we think he is reside on..

doese=do

damn keyboard.. you figure it out...

its almost ten time to call it a night sleep well my friend.

Posted by Liberal777Libra
The ancient Assyrians had "faith" in their gods and kings, as did the Egyptians, Israelites, Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc, etc, x 10,000 religions past,present, and future. How many religions exist or have existed? How many different religions are Christian?
By your very reasoning everyone is faithful, including Atheists. I have faith there is no god or gods. Guess what, I can't prove that either (and I fall into the vast minority) so "Credo quia absurdum- I believe because it is irrational" applies to me as well. It really doesn't take much research to understand how and why Christianity was formulated as a control system. A key difference is that Atheists do not have a mandate to control, oh sorry I mean convert. We simply detest the idea of the "irrationality of faith" to pervade all or any of the other human endeavors, for it will be our end, something religions seem to need to foretell as a motivational tactic.

Faith is not meant to be proof of the existence of God. However, faith has nothing to do with atheism as by it's own definition rules out faith as there is nothing to believe in. The definition of faith as it pertains to religion mean to believe the specific beliefs of that religion.

It is interesting how atheists have adopted the teachings of Christianity without giving it credit. The ethics & values atheists hold high now were derived from religion. To be kind, treat other's as you would like to be treated; all came from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

God is almost as big a mistery
as mistery is.

Posted by Qbone
Yes BASIC meaning of GOD..!

If you are really understood the true meaning and position of the GOD then you will be unable to talk about simply because no one would ever understand your point of view or expression of the God!

And most importantly it is your own personal understanding of the God, it is not general.

One thing I found during my Sufi practices that there are some elements out there that one shouldn't talk about it in crowd.

in my studies i was told the same. that by sharing your insights and musing openly that you can actually lose ground with respect to understanding god.

the concept is such that god is infinite and by talking about god, you are trying to define god and by definition, that can't be god.

Posted by Qbone

My personal studies in all available paths lead me to this point that the GOD and view of the GOD is personal and it has nothing to do with the mumbojumbos of the abrahamic religions.

But he/she dose exist in other platform than we think he is reside on..

agreed! and stop butchering english.

"i am the I Am" is a profound statement and often times when people try to explain the concept of I Am it gets lost. it is the most simplistic yet complex notion and i think throughout history human beings rejected what God truly is for grandiose tales, deities and idols. i mean it's sorta why in the bible, the hebrews rejected god's first commandments. we don't respond to pure and simple. we need more constructs, more rigidity, more rules...that's what makes us human after all.

or better yet, it's like that scene in the matrix where mr. smith says that the first matrix was perfect...a utopia but human beings rejected it because we intrinsically want to struggle. i think when you stop struggling and embrace the obvious, you begin to wrap your mind around what god is and how what is isn't what it's not.

for me personally, when i "got it" i went from a state of being lost and disillusioned to a profound sense of understanding and connectedness. i felt peace when before i felt nothing but turmoil. i so wanted to believe in god and then i realized, whether i acknowledge it or not, i am what I Am.

god is a beautiful thing and just thinking about it makes me smile.

Tubb Ass if you had a brain you would be dangerous.

Posted by Mistery

Posted by Liberal777Libra
The ancient Assyrians had "faith" in their gods and kings, as did the Egyptians, Israelites, Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc, etc, x 10,000 religions past,present, and future. How many religions exist or have existed? How many different religions are Christian?
By your very reasoning everyone is faithful, including Atheists. I have faith there is no god or gods. Guess what, I can't prove that either (and I fall into the vast minority) so "Credo quia absurdum- I believe because it is irrational" applies to me as well. It really doesn't take much research to understand how and why Christianity was formulated as a control system. A key difference is that Atheists do not have a mandate to control, oh sorry I mean convert. We simply detest the idea of the "irrationality of faith" to pervade all or any of the other human endeavors, for it will be our end, something religions seem to need to foretell as a motivational tactic.

Faith is not meant to be proof of the existence of God. However, faith has nothing to do with atheism as by it's own definition rules out faith as there is nothing to believe in. The definition of faith as it pertains to religion mean to believe the specific beliefs of that religion.

It is interesting how atheists have adopted the teachings of Christianity without giving it credit. The ethics & values atheists hold high now were derived from religion. To be kind, treat other's as you would like to be treated; all came from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

click to expand

Oh yeah, well, I guess your right. The Ancient Greek democracy and their rich literature, art and philospophy had nothing to do with ethics, fairness, and human rights. Remember that it was the slave-owning christians that came to the new world to teach (umm..annhilate) the native americans about ethics. The last thing Judeo-Christians seem to do is to follow the golden rule. lets burn some other people's holy books while we are at it. Is the death penalty the personification of the golden rule? Is that forgiveness or revenge? (I know you have a bible quote for that). Do the christians lobby hard for death penalty. Yes. Your god will burn YOU in Hell forever if you don't believe in him and accept jesus, yada yada yada..Is that the way to treat your children?

Great statement..

Thank you.. I have a lot to add but it will be out of topic..!

religion has nothing to do with God and i think one trivializes the topic by arguing over bullshit.

who gives a damn if this person were burned or that one was stoned. maybe the "voice" the assholes heard are the same voices that people hear in asylums. what does that have to do with god?

😛

from the comics

Is God a mystery
wrapped in an enigma
or an enigma
wrapped in a mystery?