Faithless

I keep coming back to this....faith vs. logic; I've had a somewhat religous background, and It only left me wanting more, and not drawing a finsh to anything. What if religon is used to give the scourge of our society the hope that if not in this life, they'll find forgiveness by a 'higher power' by a more loving indivdual?....Hope that although they are so pathetic, that god will take them into his arms and all is forgiven? Huh, if that's true than the having consequences, and law is useless, if in the end God is the one whom matters most....why not just take responsiblity and self-recognition for your actions, or lack of them? Why do people who practically crumble under circumstance turn to someone who cannot be proven exists in hopes that they can forget that they are scum?.....Why must the scourge seek forgiveness? Is relgion simply a tool used for/to control the simple-spirited and the people who deny any for of self-restraint, that when all goes awry, they have something to turn to when they find themselves outsted, and excommunicated? It defeats the purpose of punishment, and retribution.....why have free will, if you're religous, when god is responsible, and forgiving of everything; it defeats the purpose in my belief of having the right to think, and say what you feel openly.....if all of it is atributed to a single higher entity.....I need some answers, or at least some opinions to bounce around in my head.

It's strange to me that people can honestly get caught up in this.....why? Afraid that at the end of the day you are alone? That you like the rest of us feel pangs of lonliness, and that it's too much to bear so you turn to a entity that can't be proven in existence in any form except through faith? It's just weird is all....

NOW what are you complaining about? X_X

Huh, if that's true than the having consequences, and law is useless, if in the end God is the one whom matters most....why not just take responsiblity and self-recognition for your actions, or lack of them?

wow. THAT sounds logical? o_O

VE, really I do respect you but please.

You know..v.v greater minds than you...

*whispers* they believe in God...

I won't even get into Einstein, C.S Lewis, Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, all our brilliant founding fathers and many others. Constantine had revived the Roman empire with christianity, thanks to his mother keeping him straight. People just miss all the details. Did you know that every government is established by God whether the people realize it or not? bet you didn't know that, did you? Yes, Adam screwed it up in the Garden but that doesn't mean God didn't have a plan for them afterward. To get his creation back into his good graces. Giving his innocent son so we can get back to Him, the Father, was a lot more than we deserved. And many people are just still confused about it. You know people say to themselves "Why doesn't anyone understand me, why don't they...I'm all alone..." You know why they say that? Like they're so confused. They're confused about their own confusion. The devil wants them confused not God! God gave us a choice. Now figure it out!

You know, the savage out in the wilderness is more intelligent than the guy surrounded in civilization. He has vast knowledge at his fingertips and yet the very God that gave him the power of choice has chosen against Him. The very God that gave him the intelligence to create this machine is now using this machine to waste time trying to disprove God. God is much greater than the human mind..or at least I would hope so! I would feel more sorry for the guy surrounded in civilization than the savage out in the wilderness cause at least he is AWARE there is someone greater than himself.

We're always looking to something greater than ourselves but we never seek God, the creator himself! Even the computer is greater than the man. If 98% of the prophecy from the old testement has already been fullfilled what makes our pea-minded brains think that the 2% left won't come to fruition?

Didn't God say:
"My people suffer from lack of knowledge."

How much do you remember with that "religious background" of yours? If you even bothered seek God to begin with.

*He has vast knowledge at his fingertips and yet the very God that gave him the power of choice, he has chosen against Him. The very God that gave him the intelligence to create this machine, he is now using this machine to waste time trying to disprove God.

lol yes....hehheheeh I thought you'd be the first to reply RC LMAO....I see; it IS a touchy subject for people....I wasn't targeting you DIRECTLY, I was hoping for a more objective/gereral explanation; I expected this to a degree, but sheesh; Sorry mentally lazy today *merc. in Libra* I'll just get to the point; god for the ones that seek a figure to emulate, yet see only themselves, and find it not to be enough, and self for the ones who can get by on little less than a prayer? Can you PROVE that god exists? can you prove that any of what is in the bible transpired, and is VALID? I want proof, not theorectical ideas....this is your idea isn't it, aside from the bible passages isn't it? I know that god is useful for the fearful, and the believing, but why DO YOU believe in the first place? My thinking is telling me most people are afraid to be without a common thread, or tether because it would mean that we are all alone and what better way to mend the lonliness than a common source of origin? I see the theory behind god, but why? Believe in something that isn't here? Is it because you stray from the path, of right and wrong because you may want to take that dark path? Is god just the serving median for all of us who wish to take that step into the dark? Well there are certainly those who walk in the light and do it just as easily as one who believes; so why?

Dy, I just...I can't find comfort in something that brings no conclusion to anything....it just makes me more curious, and more hungry for knowledge; I'm not saying that god dosen't exist, or that jesus didn't die, or any of those things, but this all is so damned confusing to me......why can't people just admit that THEY are the median between those dark impulses, and the light.....is it that horrifying to admit that we do have the power of choice, and that we destroy ourselves, or create ourselves? It's as if to say, "I make my own destiny" or "god foresees all ,and I am just a cog in his fate" which is which? I'm not saying I couldn't tolerate religion, or accept it, but why do I find fault with it, and not the solace of the rest of the masses?

lol, I guess you should tell me, 'You're just a kid, you've got plenty of time to figure it all out' but I want to know the answer NOW! I can't help it, I need to know this to bring a rest to this search; what I know thus far is that people need to feel a source of common bond, and connection to something above themelves becuase it would be lonely/arrogant to admitt we are the pinnicle of existence, and the idea of there existing an higher powerful being makes us feel as if we are loved and all cared for; it gives us the EXCUSE to be pittless, inhuman and selfish to one another in all hopes that we will all be forgiven and loved eternally if we simply ask for forgivness and wouldn't all that just be the scientific result or pressence of a sense of empathy and morality?; much like the way a child is to their sibling, and the mother/father protesting not to treat the sibling so coldly....

Why not just care? We made this world what it is, and should take responsibility for it...it was nothing the devil made us do, only the thing we WANTED to do, but couldn't come to terms with....religion to me sounds like a massive source of denial of the presence of our selfish darker impulses....why not just accept it and make peace with it?

Dear VE: The "Church" was not meant to be a building. The church is people symbolic of the "body" of Christ. His head, eyes, ears, arms, hands, feet. A building cannot contain this. Faith is the evidence of things HOPED for,not yet seen. Think about that. How does one have EVIDENCE if he has not seen? It is a KNOWING in your spirit and a gift of God to have this faith. We certainly DO aknowlege our darker sides and that it is a constant battle "against pricipalities and powers" that we fight. We are all tempted, and we are all born with a free will. Is there not something DEEP inside you that tells you there is something more than just being born and dying? As an individual (for now forget the rest of the world) but for YOU, isn't there something saying to you that this is toatally Illogical? I mean to be just born, go through heart-ache and trauma and joy and dissapointment and then just die? There are as many arguments for Christ as there are against Him or the existence of God. Then you must make an individual decision. It is much harder for a person to stand for Christ than it is to simply aknowledge and accept that he(the person) has a dark side. When one accepts Christ as his savior he accepts an ongoing internal/external battle. The darkness hates the light and will do anything to keep it from shining. As Christ said, he was persecuted (even by the religeous superiors of the day)because he brought light upon the sin, the darkness. ASK GOD, even if you are not sure of Him to grant you FAITH. You won't have "proof" until you have a knowing inside that cannot be denied.

christianity is about knowing that you are NOT righteous. It is the righteousness of Christ that covers. However, religion says many things. The pharasees were indeed very "religeous" yet they would rather a person NOT be healed than be healed on the "sabbath" which broke THEIR laws! That'd why Christ told them they "were a bunch of white-washed tombs. You clean the outside of the bowl and don't clean the inside". Looking good to the world, but rotten at the core is what he meant.

God says he is the Judge. So as for people who don't accept Christ..well you only have one Judge. It's only God you have to answer to, and hey if HE doesn't exist...no prob right?

But then what if He does? If you are going to gamble might as well err on the side of eternal life.

I wish everyone would quit using the words Religion and Christianity as if they are the same.

It's really an individual beleif. I, quite frankly get disgusted by the cha-ching bling-bling. The reason for a teacher is to show the way, and give an example of the way so we can emulate it. Cha-ching, and bling bling did not have much to do with Christ's life. It was more like "I would that you all prosper, even as YOUR SOUL prospers"..so yeah the money thing bugs me too. As you say there are the legitimate ministries, they are feeding hungry, housing orphans, visiting sick etc... this they need money to do as well as reach remote areas with the gospel. Every coin will have both sides.

Don't get me wrong Roxijam..I would not try to change or pursuade anyone. It is impossible.. I only want people to realize that you can have a million religions, and everyone says they are right. I think it rediculous to persuade someone that you can only go to church on Saturday for instance, but then, I just disassociate myself with that. Doesn't make them any less good or honest. Of course you don't have to affiliate youself with any particular faith. You could be on a deserted Island and God would still exist (or not) for you. No group or affiliation. That's not how I meant it.

Just in case you are still out there ROX I apologize, but I have to go for now. Good night.

If I were going somewhere and a person wrote directions out for me, however, purposely left out turns for me along the way .. my mind would question as to "why" .. did they want me to get lost?

This always pops to mind when I think about religion .. why remove the Nag Hamadi? What is in there that somebody didn't want us to know?
If the "word" is truth .. then isn't it all?

Furthermore .. how could I possibly make such a life-decision with the intentional ommission of information and completely ignore that there had to be a reason for doing this, or it wouldn't have happened and justify it by calling it "faith"?

A unicorn cannot fly

Niether can an atheist burn ..

I liked the book "Embraced by the Light" by Betty J. Eadie. She met Christ in a near-death experience...and was told that all religions were important to God because they were stepping-stones to Him. We have no right to criticize other religions or act as a stumbling block to others' faith...

However, she also learned that knowing Christ is the closest we can get to God, and we will all at one time, either here or in the afterlife, meet him, and surrender to His love. He came to teach unconditional love, and His death on the cross was the apotheosis of that message.

My experience of Jesus Christ is that He is the best friend we can ever have....He loves us no matter what we do, and His teachings bring us into the fullness and truth of life...

When VE said, "What if religon is used to give the scourge of our society the hope that if not in this life, they'll find forgiveness by a 'higher power' by a more loving indivdual?....Hope that although they are so pathetic, that god will take them into his arms and all is forgiven?"


By owning the assumption that one would burn in hell for thier actions .. is one in the same as owning, "if religion is used to give"

To claim and own hell, is to claim and own God .. for one does not exist without the other .. hell has to be present in order to keep the threat hanging over the head so one would not allow the souls perdition THRU "if religon is used to give".

To be agnostic is one in the same as owning "the faith" it as a Christian, for faith is a condition in which there is no proof, no evidence .. if one owns damnation for actions, then one owns retribution through Christ

that's why I said I would not try to persuade anyone because it is impossible. The persuasion to one or the other comes from within. The spirit of the person is key. The judgement of each other is a mask of control. Unfortunaetly,we cannot ask someone who has passed away what they have been through. The stories we do hear of such, we don't hold credible (as a whole), and lacking proof, as some need to have, will always exist.
So there is no point in trying to persuade. Do any of us REALLY KNOW the fate of JUDAS even though he was called "the son of perdition"? I mean as far as eternity goes? Do any of REALLY KNOW there IS an eternity? We all have theories.

yes the refrences are biblical.

I am sorry, I did assume you would know that Judas was the one of the 12 deciples that turned Jesus in to be crucified (for 30 pcs. of silver). Christ prayed for His desciples to God and said "Father, I have kept all those you have given me except Judas, the son of perdition"...Be back Monday if you want to talk more. Have a good week-end.

Just one more thing Roxi...I think we all ask the question even if it's not a verbal question, it's something we have to weigh internally. But isn't it fair to weigh things with knowledge of them? I mean rather than just dismiss the premise? See you later

How is it ascertained that there are good things and messages to be lost if one isn't religious or pious in any way? The fact that you "like" to have respect regarding the powerful messages, doesn't make it so with your word, since you have no loyatly to it. How do you know that there was even a baby in the bathtub? Because you'd "like" to believe it to be true? Isn't that the whole point of this thread in the first place?

VE already knows the wind is blowing .. he's looking for "what" is in the wind.

Judging from the tone of this conversation, JW, it doesn't appear as though Roxi is embarking on a "quest" of unanswered questions .. it's a debate, not an inner journey.

Wow, you all really do like coming up with theories that don't add up. No different than the scientist down the road with his head stuck in the same ole book. Coming up with his own theories to make sure his pride is intact. No different than lucifer himself. If any one of you bothered to read the actual bible in it's completion.

"I don't believe in God. I believe each individual is their own God, their own conscience, their own guiding light, their own world. The world is not one place we all inhabit, it's a different place for us all, we all have a different map, a different blueprint."

Ditto .. we aren't physical beings embarking on a spiritual journey, rather, already spirits having a physical exprience.

"It's all a beautiful illusion that we ascribe meaning to .. but as EVERY Piscean knows, it exists ONLY in 'the other realm'. None of it is real."

15. Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

16. Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

17. Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

19. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.

To the one who came into being before coming into being..

Absolutely. We all did. You have to read all the scripture. All in one, one in all.

34. Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

35. Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

36. Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about your clothing--] what you are going to wear. [You're much better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin.
As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who might add to your stature? That very one will give you your garment.]"

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

38. Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be days when you will seek me and you will not find me."

39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.
As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

40. Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."

41. Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they have."

42. Jesus said, "Be passersby."

43. His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?"

"You don't understand who I am from what I say to you.

Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."

"People back then must have thought, 'when is this guy going to shut the fuck up!?!'"


I guess they couldn't get him to .. so they crucified his ass instead.

from Roxi:"Wow, you all really do like coming up with theories that don't add up. No different than the scientist down the road with his head stuck in the same ole book. Coming up with his own theories to make sure his pride is intact. No different than lucifer himself. If any one of you bothered to read the actual bible in it's completion."

What theories are you referring to. All said WAS from the bible, not a personal theory. Are you insinuating that the actual bible has NOT been read? Thaat would be far too big a judgement on your part. The problem is, that the ENTIRE bible is seen by some as just a man made theory. There will never be an end to the differences in viewpoint. Period. The differences are personal. But I WAYYYYYYY disagree with you being your own god. If the seas were not here, you could not create them. You could not make lightening and hail, snow and rain fall upon the earth. You would not even have the creative power to re-invent the lightbulb. I wonder..where does intelligent life originate from in your "theoretical opinion"? Just curious.

dyrstr8z: do you mean to say that something as intricately complex as the human body evolved, and something as simple as as a pencil had to be created? I disagree. And why are there still apes if they evolved or fish. What is the scientific answer? There may be a so called scientific "THEORY" but it must be aknowledged as such. It is an idea without proof. It is unfortunately taught as a solid "truth". And so, we are back at the beginning, where it will never be settled in a dispute of the minds. For in my mind, even if the smallest of molecules, atoms, neurons, etc..caused some "BIG BOOM" I would still have to ask where it came from. "Nothing from nothing leaves nothing"...
If someone can believe that this beautiful earth, all that is in it and upon it, with it's complexity of function and distinct food chain balance came from an explosion that is a mystery to me...more so of a mystery than God. Is it just a weird coincidence that the sun is place just right in the universe, as to not cook us? Or that the moon is exactly where it needs to be in it's distance from both moon and sun? Scientists don't have clue. But yet we are are willing to say it happened by chance? Wow!

No, Roxi couldn't; "however, there is nothing in the material universe that requires a Creator"

Why does anyone worry about conserving anything? If we are so proud of our own evolved intelligence that we say we can re-create anything? I hope they (the scientists) never have to prove that speculation...they can't.They cannot take "nothing" and create anything. They have to have an existing starting point. God didn't.

Actually, the moon moves in it's path 1.67 inches every year, further away from earth. Science isn't a guess, JW .. it's fact.

Our tides are becoming weaker because the moon takes 3.8 centimeters longer to orbit.

85 million years ago, the moon was only 35 feet away from the earths surface.

lol yes....hehheheeh I thought you'd be the first to reply RC LMAO....I see; it IS a touchy subject for people....I wasn't targeting you DIRECTLY, I was hoping for a more objective/gereral explanation; I expected this to a degree, but sheesh; Sorry mentally lazy today *merc. in Libra* I'll just get to the point; god for the ones that seek a figure to emulate, yet see only themselves, and find it not to be enough, and self for the ones who can get by on little less than a prayer? Can you PROVE that god exists? can you prove that any of what is in the bible transpired, and is VALID? I want proof, not theorectical ideas....this is your idea isn't it, aside from the bible passages isn't it? I know that god is useful for the fearful, and the believing, but why DO YOU believe in the first place? My thinking is telling me most people are afraid to be without a common thread, or tether because it would mean that we are all alone and what better way to mend the lonliness than a common source of origin? I see the theory behind god, but why? Believe in something that isn't here? Is it because you stray from the path, of right and wrong because you may want to take that dark path? Is god just the serving median for all of us who wish to take that step into the dark? Well there are certainly those who walk in the light and do it just as easily as one who believes; so why?


Wow, with that kind of attitude, there is no need for faith.

PA ...Firstly I have NO IDEA what happened 85 million years ago. (I have reservations that science can prove anything there either)>But..I was just trying to generally state that our universe is made with such precision that it is impossible for ME (ME) to beleive it was done by some BOOM..And I do find it hard to see that others can think that.So I am not science bashing, just saying that science has a conflict of interest using it's own tools to test it's own theories. Who's to say those tools aren't corrupt? What proof do we have that they are not? There is no measure, therefore "fact" is not always equivelant to "truth". I ecpress my ideas, as they are to me, and respect those of others. If someone wants to beleive we were pooped out of a volcanic eruption I have no say so and they have a right to their veiw (ALL MOONS ASIDE)😉

god for the ones that seek a figure to emulate, yet see only themselves, and find it not to be enough, and self for the ones who can get by on little less than a prayer? A man's thoughts are continuously towards evil. Now let that sink in.

Can you PROVE that god exists? I hope not. He wouldn't be unlimited, if my limited mind could limit the unlimited.

can you prove that any of what is in the bible transpired, and is VALID? I can't but He can, why don't you ask Him? Do any of us look like we have unlimited power?

I want proof, not theorectical ideas....this is your idea isn't it, aside from the bible passages isn't it? The scripture is God's word not my idea. That wasn't a theory, that was wisdom.

I know that god is useful for the fearful, and the believing, but why DO YOU believe in the first place? He requires me to.

I see the theory behind god, but why? who and what could be Above the Creator?

Believe in something that isn't here? So faith, hope and love can exist? Absolutely.

Is it because you stray from the path, of right and wrong because you may want to take that dark path? Well let's see...the dark, the wrong...the light, the right...you know, I think they're paired correctly. What do you think? Since you recognize the difference between the two. Which one do you want to take, VE?

Is god just the serving median for all of us who wish to take that step into the dark? Hmmmm, actually yes. He came to save those who are lost, not those who think they've already been found. He allows those people to be stubborn for a reason.

Well there are certainly those who walk in the light and do it just as easily as one who believes; so why? Really? I'd think twice about that. Take another look, VE.

ALL MOONS ASIDE

lol

"If someone wants to beleive we were pooped out of a volcanic eruption I have no say so and they have a right to their veiw"

Volcanic Eruptions? You can't be serious?

We started as molecules .. anyway, I was just telling you, when you said, "Or that the moon is exactly where it needs to be in it's distance from both moon and sun? Scientists don't have clue" That scientists do, indeed, have a clue .. so, I was pointing out facts.

Anyway .. believe what you want, I wasn't disputing your God to you, rather, pointing out science ..

ok, my math sucks then

The moon was formed 4.5 billion years ago.

Greatest words and thought I have ever seen on this board so far (beside mine).. thank you DepthCharge for your wisdom

I appreciate it very much

"a conflict of interest using it's own tools to test it's own theories. Who's to say those tools aren't corrupt? What proof do we have that they are not? There is no measure, therefore "fact" is not always equivelant to "truth"."

JW, I think this was the reason VE started this thread in the first place, wasn't it? He is saying that this "truth" is just faith based with no real evidence .. how does he know that the tools aren't corrupt?

No, fact isn't always equivelant to truth and visa versa. There's a conflict of his interest saying that the word of this "truth" cannot be measured to his satisfaction. So, in reality .. the same posture you take about science is one and the same that he takes about faith ..

Personally, I've always thought it quite odd that this God, walked with his people, talked to them .. until Jesus was born .. then complete silence. Why? Throughout the old testiment this God, so loved his children and was there for them to hear and see. A man that people called, "Christ" was born and God withdraw to leave his people, desserted them, forsake them .. a new one walked the earth .. one that said, "I am the way". Since these words were uttered, God has left his people.

I suppose it would make sense to remove Jesus's testimony from the bible that says he is not here to bring peace, rather destruction .. for Jesus was indeed the Anti-Christ. Revelations says, that even the clergy would be fooled .. and that is so, they worship a false idol and have been doing so ever since these passages have been removed from the bible.

The Revelations isn't that which will come to pass, rather, history of how Christians were decieved, how they were blinded by a man and called him "God" .. for a long time, I've wondered .. how in the world could Satan fool, trick, decieve someone who is so close to God that he's a Pope, Priest, Bishop, Cardinal .. how in the hell could THEY be fooled? Because it came to pass, and has continued to do so .. they worship Jesus, that IS why God withdrew to the Heavens and has never been seen, or heard from again by us humans ..

That is to say, that's my belief for all you other people about your God .. for me, it doesn't apply because I know the truth .. the knowledge (Gnosis) .. God isn't real.

"Volcanic Eruptions? You can't be serious?" P-Angel, that was sarcasm. Like saying I people can believe we were hatched from a coconut or something.. not literal, and I know you weren't disputing God..Is there someone else who said that in here? (Looks around)

And DY: Creation is what I am talking about. Not apples and oranges. Take the eye for example. It is so intricate and complex in it's operation. How did this alone evolve? Was it just a bunch of molecules that decided to be eyes while toenails did their thing? If they all started from some spec then why isn't a pencil significant. We obviously didn't START as "people" ? Aw nevermind...I know we'll never agree on this one anyway, so let it go.

"P-Angel, that was sarcasm. Like saying I people can believe we were hatched from a coconut or something.. not literal, and I know you weren't disputing God"

Oh, dammit .. why does that always happen?

** Boinks herself upside the head ..

Just thought this was interesting i just read it in Wikepediea: 'And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." '[6]