.30-06 Springfield?

Jesus how did Soldiers in WWII use this thing? My grandfather fought in WWII and had the all so pleasure of using an M1 Garand. But since he passed on, he passed on the old M1 Garand he got in 1947 onto my dad and to me. A thing he told my father and later he passed it down to me was was that the .30-06 Springfield is overkill. My grandfather said that it was more or less made to half a ton Bull elks and when he managed to cap a few German soldiers during the campaign in Europe. He shot one once in the gut and he was dead and gone immediately which I'd guess the bullet went above his stomach and hit his liver. Other times if it didn't kill them the first shot in the torso then Numero 2 was the end of it. Another story I heard was from a soldier in Vietnam who managed to shoot a Viet Cong in the head he said that his skull literally split apart and his brain or what was left of it flew out and hit a tree right behind the soldier. I was like Jesus that is one hell of a caliber. I recently went hunting with an M1 Garand myself and managed to get a Buck and I was using .30-06 Jacketed Hollow Points at around 210 meters. I gotta say once it impacted it just blew most of the deer's whole shoulder off and kept on through and blasted an even bigger chuck of meat out of it's right shoulder which made me think the JHP didn't do its job, but it did! This is an amazing cartridge. I'd rank it with the 7.92x57mm and 7.62x54mm with the best performance I've ever seen in a rifle. What do you think? Anyone here ever used a .30-06 Springfield based rifle?

Posted by Impulsv
Definitely man cave talkðŸ‘

Any time. Feel free to jump in and discuss

Posted by Arrius
By the way, that M-1 that was handed down? Do you have any idea how much that is worth today? Do NOT damage it, lose it, or ever let it go.

Wouldn't dream of it dude. My grand father even made some custom modifications to the barrel and the receiver and the sights. Even though that might deflate some of the value considering he modified it in 1949. Do you think it'd still have value?

Posted by Arrius
"I'd rank it with the 7.92x57mm and 7.62x54mm with the best performance I've ever seen in a rifle."

Again, those are comparable rounds, but those are usually fired from five round magazines in bolt-action rifles whereas the M-1 is a semi-auto that uses an eight round en bloc clip. I know which one I'd want in a shootout.

Definitely. .30-06 it is for me. If I had to have a back up it'd be a 7.92x57mm from a Kar98k

Posted by Arrius

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Arrius
By the way, that M-1 that was handed down? Do you have any idea how much that is worth today? Do NOT damage it, lose it, or ever let it go.

Wouldn't dream of it dude. My grand father even made some custom modifications to the barrel and the receiver and the sights. Even though that might deflate some of the value considering he modified it in 1949. Do you think it'd still have value?

Not much, unfortunately. Within the serious collecting community (which is where the serious money is), any non-reversible alteration to a rifle reduces its value dramatically. I'm afraid that what you have is now referred to as "a shooter."

click to expand

Well luckily it is reversible. He kept the old parts in a lock box. I'd hope they still could be used but from my guess yes. But I'll stick with my shooter since I like custom stuff.

Being a veteran I love military arms. I've fired the M-1,2,4,9,16,24,60 and 246. Tow, Law, Stinger and RPG. Think that's about it. Tried to Arnold the M-60 and couldn't hit a barn after 2-3 seconds on the trigger.

How bout that M1 Carbine doe? Never had a chance to fire one of those.

Posted by Arrius

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Arrius

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Arrius
By the way, that M-1 that was handed down? Do you have any idea how much that is worth today? Do NOT damage it, lose it, or ever let it go.

Wouldn't dream of it dude. My grand father even made some custom modifications to the barrel and the receiver and the sights. Even though that might deflate some of the value considering he modified it in 1949. Do you think it'd still have value?

Not much, unfortunately. Within the serious collecting community (which is where the serious money is), any non-reversible alteration to a rifle reduces its value dramatically. I'm afraid that what you have is now referred to as "a shooter."

Well luckily it is reversible. He kept the old parts in a lock box. I'd hope they still could be used but from my guess yes. But I'll stick with my shooter since I like custom stuff.

Reversible modifications, such as swapping out a sight without drilling or altering the rifle, will not decrease the value of the rifle IF the original parts can be put back exactly as they were.

Depending on configuration and condition, an M-1 starts at about $ 1,300 and goes up. That is, unless one buys from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. However, there is an ongoing argument about whether those rifles are original/re-arsenaled or are just re-builds. I realize that this is all very arcane, but I have seen historically significant weapons "Bubba'd" into heart-breaking worthlessness.

click to expand

Speaking of which. What is a shooter? Is it meant to be a derogatory term for a custom weapon? Like saying you tuned it down so it'll be easier to fire so you're a little baby doo doo head.=?

Posted by Arrius

Posted by Ssuperman
Being a veteran I love military arms. I've fired the M-1,2,4,9,16,24,60 and 246. Tow, Law, Stinger and RPG. Think that's about it. Tried to Arnold the M-60 and couldn't hit a barn after 2-3 seconds on the trigger.

Oh did you now?

Well let me tell you "superman," if you had pulled horseshit like that in front of me, I'd have had my First Sergeant kick your ass, and then I'd have run you up on an Article 15.

click to expand

Yeah I think doing shit like that in any military branch would get you fucked up. Isn't First Sergeant an Army rank if you don't mind me asking? And besides the M-60 has honestly too much recoil and high rate of fire to be firing it like Rambo. He'd be a danger to himself and the fireteam or section around him.

Posted by Arrius

Posted by Ssuperman
Being a veteran I love military arms. I've fired the M-1,2,4,9,16,24,60 and 246. Tow, Law, Stinger and RPG. Think that's about it. Tried to Arnold the M-60 and couldn't hit a barn after 2-3 seconds on the trigger.

Oh did you now?

Well let me tell you "superman," if you had pulled horseshit like that in front of me, I'd have had my First Sergeant kick your ass, and then I'd have run you up on an Article 15.

click to expand

LOL! Yes I did! I'll just say this one thing. 3rd Rangers. Nuf said. Well, one more thing sir, 1st Sgt and Sgt. Maj. was sitting there laughing because I couldn't do better than them. You clearly must have been a jarhead. :/

Posted by cowpuncher
.30-06 is just about the most versatile rifle cartridge out there, even over a century after it's creation. Loaded with the right ammo, you can do anything that needs doing with it, most generally - certainly take any game on the North American continent.

I never found it too hard to handle, at least not from my Winchester model 70 bolt action rifle.

In the pacific theater in WWII it was a blessing to the US troops because .30-06 had enough power to shoot through the trees in the Asian theater, denying the Japanese soldiers a lot of cover.

Again, loaded correctly, it can do pretty much anything that needs doing. A guy who reloads can load it with a lighter 30 caliber cast bullet and a lighter charge of powder (still from documented load data though) that will give you a mild target or small game load. The same guy can load up 180 grain full-tilt full-power ammo that can drop a bear, elk, or moose. If you could only have one 30 caliber rifle, you could go varmint hunting, rabbit hunting, deer hunting, elk/moose hunting, or long range target shooting all with that one rifle provided you load it with the right ammo for the job. Very versatile.

I soooo wish I had an M1 Garand! Might see about joining the CMP and doing the CMP matches at a local shooting range in the coming year so that I can get one of the few remaining M1 garands for sale through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Just about any functional, working Garand is worth some $ $ $ even if it's no longer a collector piece, simply because they are a damned good, iconic rifle.

You like the garand better than the carbine? Or just want it for the collection?

I see your point.

Me personally, I love the 5.56 ammo. It gets the job done enough for me. Military combat, nobody squeezes the trigger just once. We don't jungle fight anymore. 5.56 touches out 300m just fine. I can sat that first hand. I wouldn't want want a .30 weapon. Heavy and has too much recoil for urban fighting. Just like they got away from the .45 acp. Too much recoil for urban fighting. You can fire both the 5.56 and 9mil faster and more accurate. I'm all for it.

Ehhh 5.56x45mm doesn't do so well for me. The military should opt for 6.8SPC. Far better penetrating power either that or .300 Blackout.

I loved my Savage Axis 30-06. I ended up selling it because I wanted to shoot it more than I could afford to.

Posted by cowpuncher

Posted by Sn1p3r187
Ehhh 5.56x45mm doesn't do so well for me. The military should opt for 6.8SPC. Far better penetrating power either that or .300 Blackout.

*nods* or 6.5 Grendel... pardon my typo dyslexia in my previous post, gents. 🙂

Ssupes: That all depends on the 30 caliber (or .270ish caliber) in question though.

My issue with 5.56 Nato is it's basically a great varmint round. For what it can do, it does it very well.

That said if it can't be relied upon to kill a deer efficiently, imho it's not enough for our guys in uniform. Something with a fatter bullet and still good range like 6.5 Grendel is the answer imho.

Also, hollow points. Particularly in handgun calibers.

.40 S&W provides a lot more stopping power for not much more recoil than 9mm, and pretty close to the same capacity. Having a lot of rounds is no replacement for good handgun instruction and plenty of practice though. Note the number of stories from the past decade or so where LAPD shot at a perp in a car 200+ times without hitting him lol Spray and Pray doesn't work.

click to expand

5.56 nato is not meant to kill. It's meant to wound and remove from the fighting. Preserving life at all cost.

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by cowpuncher

Posted by Sn1p3r187
Ehhh 5.56x45mm doesn't do so well for me. The military should opt for 6.8SPC. Far better penetrating power either that or .300 Blackout.

*nods* or 6.5 Grendel... pardon my typo dyslexia in my previous post, gents. 🙂

Ssupes: That all depends on the 30 caliber (or .270ish caliber) in question though.

My issue with 5.56 Nato is it's basically a great varmint round. For what it can do, it does it very well.

That said if it can't be relied upon to kill a deer efficiently, imho it's not enough for our guys in uniform. Something with a fatter bullet and still good range like 6.5 Grendel is the answer imho.

Also, hollow points. Particularly in handgun calibers.

.40 S&W provides a lot more stopping power for not much more recoil than 9mm, and pretty close to the same capacity. Having a lot of rounds is no replacement for good handgun instruction and plenty of practice though. Note the number of stories from the past decade or so where LAPD shot at a perp in a car 200+ times without hitting him lol Spray and Pray doesn't work.

5.56 nato is not meant to kill. It's meant to wound and remove from the fighting. Preserving life at all cost.

click to expand

man that's that bullshit. Fuck preserving life there in war. It'd come back to bite them fast. They should just use 6.5 or 6.8 or better yet .300 Blackout. That finishes the job

Posted by theDomino

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by cowpuncher

Posted by Sn1p3r187
Ehhh 5.56x45mm doesn't do so well for me. The military should opt for 6.8SPC. Far better penetrating power either that or .300 Blackout.

*nods* or 6.5 Grendel... pardon my typo dyslexia in my previous post, gents. 🙂

Ssupes: That all depends on the 30 caliber (or .270ish caliber) in question though.

My issue with 5.56 Nato is it's basically a great varmint round. For what it can do, it does it very well.

That said if it can't be relied upon to kill a deer efficiently, imho it's not enough for our guys in uniform. Something with a fatter bullet and still good range like 6.5 Grendel is the answer imho.

Also, hollow points. Particularly in handgun calibers.

.40 S&W provides a lot more stopping power for not much more recoil than 9mm, and pretty close to the same capacity. Having a lot of rounds is no replacement for good handgun instruction and plenty of practice though. Note the number of stories from the past decade or so where LAPD shot at a perp in a car 200+ times without hitting him lol Spray and Pray doesn't work.

5.56 nato is not meant to kill. It's meant to wound and remove from the fighting. Preserving life at all cost.

What the flying fuck are you talking about. The 5.56 NATO round was developed for universal use among the NATO forces (cross compatibility between NATO allies), while conserving weight. A single 5.56 NATO round will kill you; the shock from being hit by such a round will kill you.

Hollow point rounds are ment to preserve lives. They are designed to fragment in order to kill the perpetrator and the perpetrator only. The use of the famous MP5 is meant to preserve lives, being that it's effective killing range is under 200m, with SAS members claiming it's effectiveness to be as low as 10-15 feet; making it the best HRM sub-machine gun to date.

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I gotta say. It doesn't always kill you. Luck comes and plays a hell of a lot in this. And then adrenaline to numb the pain plays second. It's likely that if the bullet didn't put them down in one shot they're going to come at you hard and its likely they won't die unless they did of exsanguition or complications later in Life if they live.

Posted by Arrius

Posted by theDomino

Posted by cowpuncher
Not that I think Wikipedia is the best source in the world... but here's some info on 6.5 Grendel. If it ever catches on better I'll have to get an AR upper in that caliber. I know of professional varminters (working for the DNR in their area) who swear by it for excellent accuracy and power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5mm_Grendel

The Germans are replacing their G36s in the next few years, opting for the 7.62 NATO. The changing battlefield requires a larger caliber round to compensate for the average soldier carrying body armour. I would not be surprised the other NATO forces will adopt to older rifles / or update existing platforms to chamber the 7.62.

Interesting. High time to my way of thinking Domino. I wonder what they'll use to fire that round . . .

I'm sure I've mentioned it on here before (we old guys do this), but the first rifle I ever fired was a milsurp SMLE Mk III- that's a British rifle in caliber .303 for the uninitiated. Beautiful weapon. But then, you know the old saying: the Americans built a target rifle (the M1903), the Germans built a hunting rifle (the Gewehr 98), but the British built a battle rifle-- the Short Magazine Lee-Enfield.

The Old Man, my first weapons instructor, was a Korean War vet and all about precision shooting. When I joined the [American] Army, I knew that my issue weapon would be an M-16. I was less than thrilled. It was mechanically reliable (but then, I took good care of it) AND a good shooter (if anyone ever tries to tell you that the "same kind of rifle" doesn't vary in this respect, don't believe them), but I was raised thinking that anything under .30 caliber(7.62 mm) didn't belong on the battlefield or while hunting game.

No argument though. A 5.56mm round will kill you.

Now, my "issue weapon," is a 9mm that I can't hit schmick with anyway. smdh

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it might not kill effectively enough. A 6mm may fare better. I've checked the ballistics on the 5.56 and none the less I was intrigued.

Posted by theDomino

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by cowpuncher

Posted by Sn1p3r187
Ehhh 5.56x45mm doesn't do so well for me. The military should opt for 6.8SPC. Far better penetrating power either that or .300 Blackout.

*nods* or 6.5 Grendel... pardon my typo dyslexia in my previous post, gents. 🙂

Ssupes: That all depends on the 30 caliber (or .270ish caliber) in question though.

My issue with 5.56 Nato is it's basically a great varmint round. For what it can do, it does it very well.

That said if it can't be relied upon to kill a deer efficiently, imho it's not enough for our guys in uniform. Something with a fatter bullet and still good range like 6.5 Grendel is the answer imho.

Also, hollow points. Particularly in handgun calibers.

.40 S&W provides a lot more stopping power for not much more recoil than 9mm, and pretty close to the same capacity. Having a lot of rounds is no replacement for good handgun instruction and plenty of practice though. Note the number of stories from the past decade or so where LAPD shot at a perp in a car 200+ times without hitting him lol Spray and Pray doesn't work.

5.56 nato is not meant to kill. It's meant to wound and remove from the fighting. Preserving life at all cost.

What the flying fuck are you talking about. The 5.56 NATO round was developed for universal use among the NATO forces (cross compatibility between NATO allies), while conserving weight. A single 5.56 NATO round will kill you; the shock from being hit by such a round will kill you.

Hollow point rounds are ment to preserve lives. They are designed to fragment in order to kill the perpetrator and the perpetrator only. The use of the famous MP5 is meant to preserve lives, being that it's effective killing range is under 200m, with SAS members claiming it's effectiveness to be as low as 10-15 feet; making it the best HRM sub-machine gun to date.

click to expand

Dude, you are arguing with a fucking combat vet. I know damn good and well why the 5.56 was developed and the 7.62 was dissed. It's not all about the money and weight. It's about life. The velocity of the 5.56 is so great that It passes right through you and never really expands. The hydro shock you are referring to doesn't really happen with the 5.56. It was much better with the 7.62. The whole purpose of the 5.56 was for close quarters combat. Less recoil for faster and more accurate shooting. Also, the 5.56 is much more accurate with the shorter barrel length.

How so Ssupes? Explain

Posted by Sn1p3r187
How so Ssupes? Explain

Explain what?

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187
How so Ssupes? Explain

Explain what?

click to expand

what you were talking about between the 7.62 and the 5.56

7.62 requires a longer barrel to be as accurate as the 5.56. Even at 200 yds it's not as accurate with the shorter barrel. Now, the 5.56 is not really lethal after 600 yds and the 7.62 still carries enough velocity to be lethal at that distance. Chances of an average soldier needing to make that shot are very very slim. The 5.56 was brought into play with thoughts of shooting under 200 yds. The 5.56 will simply pass right through you at that distance. The bullet really does not expand and there is minimal fragments that do extra damage (unlike the larger diameter 7.62).

And the whole thing about the money part of it wasn't about the cost of the rounds, it was that the former weapons (M-14 and M16A1) was fully auto. M-16A2 was developed with 3 round burst to cut back on ammo usage.

Posted by Ssuperman
7.62 requires a longer barrel to be as accurate as the 5.56. Even at 200 yds it's not as accurate with the shorter barrel. Now, the 5.56 is not really lethal after 600 yds and the 7.62 still carries enough velocity to be lethal at that distance. Chances of an average soldier needing to make that shot are very very slim. The 5.56 was brought into play with thoughts of shooting under 200 yds. The 5.56 will simply pass right through you at that distance. The bullet really does not expand and there is minimal fragments that do extra damage (unlike the larger diameter 7.62).

Oh. So like this ssupes?




To me it looks like the .308/7.62x51 makes a larger expansion there.

This is the .30-06 ballistics-

The lowest one is the 30-06 Springfield ballistics.

I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

click to expand

Its NATO standard bro. Not just the US military. Its also better for the soldiers. Its not about just pumping ammo down range. Its about close quarter accuracy and agility. Larger ammo requires longer barrel for heat distribution and accuracy. Not good for close quarters combat.

I'd much rather be shot with something that just took me out of the fight than get hit with a fucking elephant killer and be toast. Wouldn't you?

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

Its NATO standard bro. Not just the US military. Its also better for the soldiers. Its not about just pumping ammo down range. Its about close quarter accuracy and agility. Larger ammo requires longer barrel for heat distribution and accuracy. Not good for close quarters combat.

I'd much rather be shot with something that just took me out of the fight than get hit with a fucking elephant killer and be toast. Wouldn't you?

click to expand

Point taken. Yeah, but if I lose my legs I might as well be worse than dead though. Do you think in he near future they'll make reconsiderations to adopt 6.8SPC or .300 Blackout? And why do we have to have a NATO standard? With honesty fuck that noise, I'd say using whatever finishes the job is better for us than the sap who got shot with it. As long as the enemy is using 5.56 then we should be cool then, in some way.

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

Its NATO standard bro. Not just the US military. Its also better for the soldiers. Its not about just pumping ammo down range. Its about close quarter accuracy and agility. Larger ammo requires longer barrel for heat distribution and accuracy. Not good for close quarters combat.

I'd much rather be shot with something that just took me out of the fight than get hit with a fucking elephant killer and be toast. Wouldn't you?

Point taken. Yeah, but if I lose my legs I might as well be worse than dead though. Do you think in he near future they'll make reconsiderations to adopt 6.8SPC or .300 Blackout? And why do we have to have a NATO standard? With honesty fuck that noise, I'd say using whatever finishes the job is better for us than the sap who got shot with it. As long as the enemy is using 5.56 then we should be cool then, in some way.

click to expand

Highly unlikely that the 5.56 will disappear anytime soon as everyone likes it (including myself). Rapid and accurate firing is irreplaceable. I wouldn't replace that for ANY larger caliber bullet. If we can shoot 30 rounds per min and I can achieve 90% accuracy vs 60% . I'll take that any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

Its NATO standard bro. Not just the US military. Its also better for the soldiers. Its not about just pumping ammo down range. Its about close quarter accuracy and agility. Larger ammo requires longer barrel for heat distribution and accuracy. Not good for close quarters combat.

I'd much rather be shot with something that just took me out of the fight than get hit with a fucking elephant killer and be toast. Wouldn't you?

Point taken. Yeah, but if I lose my legs I might as well be worse than dead though. Do you think in he near future they'll make reconsiderations to adopt 6.8SPC or .300 Blackout? And why do we have to have a NATO standard? With honesty fuck that noise, I'd say using whatever finishes the job is better for us than the sap who got shot with it. As long as the enemy is using 5.56 then we should be cool then, in some way.

Highly unlikely that the 5.56 will disappear anytime soon as everyone likes it (including myself). Rapid and accurate firing is irreplaceable. I wouldn't replace that for ANY larger caliber bullet. If we can shoot 30 rounds per min and I can achieve 90% accuracy vs 60% . I'll take that any day of the week and twice on sunday.

click to expand

Unless 6.8 or 6.5 replace it by 2040.

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

Its NATO standard bro. Not just the US military. Its also better for the soldiers. Its not about just pumping ammo down range. Its about close quarter accuracy and agility. Larger ammo requires longer barrel for heat distribution and accuracy. Not good for close quarters combat.

I'd much rather be shot with something that just took me out of the fight than get hit with a fucking elephant killer and be toast. Wouldn't you?

Point taken. Yeah, but if I lose my legs I might as well be worse than dead though. Do you think in he near future they'll make reconsiderations to adopt 6.8SPC or .300 Blackout? And why do we have to have a NATO standard? With honesty fuck that noise, I'd say using whatever finishes the job is better for us than the sap who got shot with it. As long as the enemy is using 5.56 then we should be cool then, in some way.

Highly unlikely that the 5.56 will disappear anytime soon as everyone likes it (including myself). Rapid and accurate firing is irreplaceable. I wouldn't replace that for ANY larger caliber bullet. If we can shoot 30 rounds per min and I can achieve 90% accuracy vs 60% . I'll take that any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Unless 6.8 or 6.5 replace it by 2040.

click to expand

Anything is possible bro

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
I'm not a big ballistics person at all. I just know what I have learned. The 1:7 twist in the M-16 creates significant yaw after 4-500 yards. It was not designed to be a true lethal weapon. Small and high velocity for a large target isn't intended for death. Thats why some states won't even let you hunt legal game (deer and other larger animals) with them. I'm sure some people will argue all this hitting your mark crap. And thats fine. There is a big difference between the damage caused from a 30-06 and a 223.

Then why does the military still use the damn things? Why don't they de-standerize NATO ammunition? They'd be better of with a heavier and bigger bullet.

Its NATO standard bro. Not just the US military. Its also better for the soldiers. Its not about just pumping ammo down range. Its about close quarter accuracy and agility. Larger ammo requires longer barrel for heat distribution and accuracy. Not good for close quarters combat.

I'd much rather be shot with something that just took me out of the fight than get hit with a fucking elephant killer and be toast. Wouldn't you?

Point taken. Yeah, but if I lose my legs I might as well be worse than dead though. Do you think in he near future they'll make reconsiderations to adopt 6.8SPC or .300 Blackout? And why do we have to have a NATO standard? With honesty fuck that noise, I'd say using whatever finishes the job is better for us than the sap who got shot with it. As long as the enemy is using 5.56 then we should be cool then, in some way.

Highly unlikely that the 5.56 will disappear anytime soon as everyone likes it (including myself). Rapid and accurate firing is irreplaceable. I wouldn't replace that for ANY larger caliber bullet. If we can shoot 30 rounds per min and I can achieve 90% accuracy vs 60% . I'll take that any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Unless 6.8 or 6.5 replace it by 2040.

Anything is possible bro

click to expand

True. But I think we all want to see better things come from ammunition. the 5.56 just doesn't cut it when you put it's lethality within 200 yards.

Its not really meant to be lethal bro

Posted by Ssuperman
Its not really meant to be lethal bro

Would this make any other intermediate cartridges like the 7.92x33 Kurz or 6.8x43SPC any more or any less lethal?

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
Its not really meant to be lethal bro

Would this make any other intermediate cartridges like the 7.92x33 Kurz or 6.8x43SPC any more or any less lethal?

click to expand

Any weapon can kill. I've seen people survive a .50 cal round. Accuracy is key bro. 5.56 is highly accurate. At 200 yds you can get a head shot open sights.

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
Its not really meant to be lethal bro

Would this make any other intermediate cartridges like the 7.92x33 Kurz or 6.8x43SPC any more or any less lethal?

Any weapon can kill. I've seen people survive a .50 cal round. Accuracy is key bro. 5.56 is highly accurate. At 200 yds you can get a head shot open sights.

click to expand

True. But then again shouldn't power come into play as well.

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
Its not really meant to be lethal bro

Would this make any other intermediate cartridges like the 7.92x33 Kurz or 6.8x43SPC any more or any less lethal?

Any weapon can kill. I've seen people survive a .50 cal round. Accuracy is key bro. 5.56 is highly accurate. At 200 yds you can get a head shot open sights.

True. But then again shouldn't power come into play as well.

click to expand

Like I said earlier. No more power is wanted! It's not meant to be 100% lethal.

Want lethal? .308 is lethal past 1000 yds

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman

Posted by Sn1p3r187

Posted by Ssuperman
Its not really meant to be lethal bro

Would this make any other intermediate cartridges like the 7.92x33 Kurz or 6.8x43SPC any more or any less lethal?

Any weapon can kill. I've seen people survive a .50 cal round. Accuracy is key bro. 5.56 is highly accurate. At 200 yds you can get a head shot open sights.

True. But then again shouldn't power come into play as well.

Like I said earlier. No more power is wanted! It's not meant to be 100% lethal.

Want lethal? .308 is lethal past 1000 yds

click to expand

Ahh I see.

69 posts lol ftw

.308 has a flatter trajectory over long distances but the kick of the 7.62x63mm puts a massive smile on my face 🙂

The 30-06 was designed to be lethal from a mile away, which is saying a lot considering the snipers back then had to make adjustments on the fly without a spotter or computer assistance.

Posted by Hemispheres
.308 has a flatter trajectory over long distances but the kick of the 7.62x63mm puts a massive smile on my face 🙂

True. ever tried JHP? Puts an even bigger one on my face.

When I had the rifle I was using 180grn fmj at the range

My father has guns from Great-Grandfather (I don't know how many generations back) from the 2nd Boer War. He was in the Cavalry and served in WW1.
Lee Metford carbine .303 calibre
Webley Mk IV revolver .455 calibre.

Never let us fire them because they're antiques. But he has a really old BAR he let us fire. His place has land in the countryside, he shoots rabbits and foxes if they get to be a nuisance. But I think he mostly has it because he's a vet and they tend to want guns.

I don't know what will happen to the guns when he gets old and dies (he's not near that yet.) . My older sister has no interest in them and never fired one when we were kids and doesn't know how to clean them. My younger brother is vocally opposed to private gun ownership. And I rarely talk to my father. We're not a bad terms, but we're not on very good terms either. If my brother gets them, he'd had them destroyed. If my sister gets them, she'll sell them. I'd like to keep them, but we've never discussed it. It would be sad to see them leave the family. I know how to take them apart and clean them. But I've only fired the BAR a handful of times. The browning is accurate despite it's age. I'm 25 and it's at least twice my age.

I wonder how common it is for people to have guns passed down from war. I know the British military did not let my Dad keep his gun from when he served.