Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka

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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
how do you feel about it?
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lisabeth
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well for me, I realize she has become a mother, and her children are not responsible for any wrong doing their mother has done.

it's a shame really. her past is her past. and it's a very very dark one. There will be a time when she will tell her children, that yes she was accomplice, to the death of her sister. or that she helped a serial killer kill and rape more women.

how dark and shameful that is. how can one LIVE with that without nightmares and crying every night?

edit - for most people they would kill themselves (suicide)
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
how do you feel about it?
click to expand

Lisa, I'm totally against it... i feel no pity for her. Her children are now going to suffer.... I would say these are her new victims. Who would have children with this monster?
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by lisabethur8
well for me, I realize she has become a mother, and her children are not responsible for any wrong doing their mother has done.

it's a shame really. her past is her past. and it's a very very dark one. There will be a time when she will tell her children, that yes she was accomplice, to the death of her sister. or that she helped a serial killer kill and rape more women.

how dark and shameful that is. how can one LIVE with that without nightmares and crying every night?

edit - for most people they would kill themselves (suicide)
People in the area are outraged... Supposedly she hasn't sent her kids to school in weeks, since the news put the story out. Would you let your kids go over?
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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
how do you feel about it?
Lisa, I'm totally against it... i feel no pity for her. Her children are now going to suffer.... I would say these are her new victims. Who would have children with this monster?
click to expand

I have no idea.

someone who thinks she can be saved? fixed?

maybe they feel she is savable or fixable or whatever it is. Maybe for some, they see that glimmer of hope that there is a decent human being there who is remorseful deeply for what she has done?

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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
well for me, I realize she has become a mother, and her children are not responsible for any wrong doing their mother has done.

it's a shame really. her past is her past. and it's a very very dark one. There will be a time when she will tell her children, that yes she was accomplice, to the death of her sister. or that she helped a serial killer kill and rape more women.

how dark and shameful that is. how can one LIVE with that without nightmares and crying every night?

edit - for most people they would kill themselves (suicide)
People in the area are outraged... Supposedly she hasn't sent her kids to school in weeks, since the news put the story out. Would you let your kids go over?
click to expand

ok that right there is ridiculous.

she's DENYING her children education? jesus Christ.

edit - wait. there is an age range for children that is MANDATORY for them to go to school, so I don't see why the law hasn't been informed, especially if they are registered as citizens.
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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
well for me, I realize she has become a mother, and her children are not responsible for any wrong doing their mother has done.

it's a shame really. her past is her past. and it's a very very dark one. There will be a time when she will tell her children, that yes she was accomplice, to the death of her sister. or that she helped a serial killer kill and rape more women.

how dark and shameful that is. how can one LIVE with that without nightmares and crying every night?

edit - for most people they would kill themselves (suicide)
People in the area are outraged... Supposedly she hasn't sent her kids to school in weeks, since the news put the story out. Would you let your kids go over?
click to expand

I just realized that other children and adults will treat her children horribly.

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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
how do you feel about it?
Lisa, I'm totally against it... i feel no pity for her. Her children are now going to suffer.... I would say these are her new victims. Who would have children with this monster?
I have no idea.

someone who thinks she can be saved? fixed?

maybe they feel she is savable or fixable or whatever it is. Maybe for some, they see that glimmer of hope that there is a decent human being there who is remorseful deeply for what she has done?

click to expand

He is her lawyer's brother. So he knows everything. I say she's twisted and sick. If you had any remorse or decency you wouldn't put children on earth... You know?
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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
how do you feel about it?
Lisa, I'm totally against it... i feel no pity for her. Her children are now going to suffer.... I would say these are her new victims. Who would have children with this monster?
I have no idea.

someone who thinks she can be saved? fixed?

maybe they feel she is savable or fixable or whatever it is. Maybe for some, they see that glimmer of hope that there is a decent human being there who is remorseful deeply for what she has done?
He is her lawyer's brother. So he knows everything. I say she's twisted and sick. If you had any remorse or decency you wouldn't put children on earth... You know?
click to expand


well I just don't understand why she didn't try to drug Paul Bernardo in his sleep and tie him up and call the authorities as soon as she found out he was raping and killing women??

would that not make someone see grossness and disgust in a person? that the rose coloured glasses are OFF— it's like she was robot or something.
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lisabeth
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I mean I can see that a man is more physically powerful and everything, I know this for a fact. but you can do a lot of things to him while he's sleeping. and then call the police,make sure all your evidence is there because when he wakes he will destroy her because those type of men are so very evil and cruel they don't care anymore about human life.

edit - I remember the story of Lorena Bobbit, and she cut that man's dick off while he was piss drunk.

it was the ONLY way. because I bet he was abusive and cruel.
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
well for me, I realize she has become a mother, and her children are not responsible for any wrong doing their mother has done.

it's a shame really. her past is her past. and it's a very very dark one. There will be a time when she will tell her children, that yes she was accomplice, to the death of her sister. or that she helped a serial killer kill and rape more women.

how dark and shameful that is. how can one LIVE with that without nightmares and crying every night?

edit - for most people they would kill themselves (suicide)
People in the area are outraged... Supposedly she hasn't sent her kids to school in weeks, since the news put the story out. Would you let your kids go over?
I just realized that other children and adults will treat her children horribly.

click to expand

Of course...
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lisabeth
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Posted by LunarMaiden
Once I found out he is a Virgo I KNEW she would be a Bull.
Now I am shocked that her little sister she helped rape and murder was a Goat.
Damn shame.
this is her chart
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Karla_Homolka



Born: May 4, 1970, 12:20 AM
In: Mississauga, Ontario (Canada)
Sun: 13°18' Taurus AS: 2°25' Capricorn
Moon: 24°57' Aries MC: 29°02' Libra
Dominants: Libra, Taurus, Gemini
Jupiter, Moon, Saturn
Houses 4, 5, 3 / Air, Earth / Cardinal
Chinese Astrology: Metal Dog

--

they have Capricorn energy in the family. year of the dog, and doesn't seem very loyal to her family. That is so odd. it's like an affliction.
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
how do you feel about it?
Lisa, I'm totally against it... i feel no pity for her. Her children are now going to suffer.... I would say these are her new victims. Who would have children with this monster?
I have no idea.

someone who thinks she can be saved? fixed?

maybe they feel she is savable or fixable or whatever it is. Maybe for some, they see that glimmer of hope that there is a decent human being there who is remorseful deeply for what she has done?
He is her lawyer's brother. So he knows everything. I say she's twisted and sick. If you had any remorse or decency you wouldn't put children on earth... You know?

well I just don't understand why she didn't try to drug Paul Bernardo in his sleep and tie him up and call the authorities as soon as she found out he was raping and killing women??

would that not make someone see grossness and disgust in a person? that the rose coloured glasses are OFF— it's like she was robot or something.
click to expand

hmm, not a robot imo, but as demented as him -- they were meant for each other

she didn't drug him because she enjoyed what was going on... why else would she be there? In the videos they found, she was just as crazy as he was and a very willing participant
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by lisabethur8
I don't know, apc, I don't have any clue. every woman is different.

as for her having children, there's no point in going back to her not having any.

these women made their decisions and choices and there's nothing anyone can do. 😢

edit- do you think she's changed now that she's a mother??
I think she has a new perspective but is highly manipulative using those kids to her advantage. She's a soccer mom, baking goodies but as many people have said in the many comments I have read, you can't do those types of crimes to then lead a normal life. She has crossed over to the other side, if you will, and nothing can erase that.

You feel she deserves a break?
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by Impulsv
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
Wow who would marry her n procreate with her!
click to expand

Her lawyer's brother... to boot!
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aquapiscescusp
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They were living in Guadeloupe for a few years until they realized who she was...

She now goes by the name Leanne Teale — an especially chilling choice. Homolka and Bernardo had applied to change their legal names to Leanne Teale and Paul Jason Teale after coming across the surname in a movie about a serial killer. They received formal approval five days before his arrest in 1993.

The fact that she uses this name today is quite telling. Scary witch.
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by Impulsv
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by Impulsv
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
Wow who would marry her n procreate with her!
Her lawyer's brother... to boot!
What is his sign lol
I'm convinced most men are fucked up
click to expand

LOL

You know what, there isn't much about this guy... His name is Thierry Bordelais... I will dig deeper.

I have noticed that more men (than women) feel she's done her time and should be left alone... are they attracted to this psycho?


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enfant_terrible
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Posted by Impulsv
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Ok... How would you feel is Karla was your neighbor? She has been living in a Montreal suburb for a few years and people there are shocked to know it's her. She has 3 kids and is married.

The news media has been harassing her and she's even called the cops.

People are saying she should leave he area!

What do you all think?
Wow who would marry her n procreate with her!
click to expand

Meanwhile, catladies be like


Image Not Found

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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by trollbait
I like how people seem to discount the fact that Paul Bernado is no longer around her - he was her Achilles heel.

Couple serial killers will always work together - until one of them is taken out of the picture. However in Bernado's case, there is a possibility that even if he hadn't been with her, he would have continued with his deranged killings. He was already a serial rapist by the time he met her.
He never killed before meeting her... just a mere rapist
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by LadyNeptune
12 years is not long enough. She should have been locked up for life.
that's the problem, she wasn't "punished" for what she did
click to expand

It's not about being punished it's about locking up these psychos for life so that they can't poison society.

In my eyes her crime is worse than his. He preyed and destroyed a young woman's life. She did this to her sister. Who treats family like that? Someone who can't be saved.

Lock her up and throw away the key.
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by LadyNeptune
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by LadyNeptune
12 years is not long enough. She should have been locked up for life.
that's the problem, she wasn't "punished" for what she did
It's not about being punished it's about locking up these psychos for life so that they can't poison society.

In my eyes her crime is worse than his. He preyed and destroyed a young woman's life. She did this to her sister. Who treats family like that? Someone who can't be saved.

Lock her up and throw away the key.
click to expand

yeah and now that she's being harassed by the media and neighbours, she is calling the police... why didn't she call the police when those teenage girls she and her husband kept captive were begging for their lives...

she could have let them go... she was alone with them enough times to do it

evil
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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by LadyNeptune
12 years is not long enough. She should have been locked up for life.
that's the problem, she wasn't "punished" for what she did
click to expand

12 years is not enough for all the rapings/killings.

some men get LIFE for one murder

that is very disturbing about her baking goodies and being a soccer mom and keeping serial killer names?

there's something "off" about it all.

mentally disturbed.

I notice she's a packed 4th house, that's why I said earlier that she must be afflicted.

and she's dominant air/earth 40% each, but doesn't mean much when other peeps have same chart and would not do this.

that's why I think she's mentally disturbed, I wonder if they have an advanced scan for checking illness there.

also with all those people /neighbors who are harassing her, I bet she is not afraid of them.

does evil change overnight?
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lisabeth
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I found this.

http://www.ranker.com/list/serial-killers-who-suffered-from-mental-illness/ranker-crime

David Berkowitz (aka the Son of Sam) was responsible for a crime spree from 1976-1977 that saw him take the lives of 6 people. After he was caught, Berkowitz claimed that his neighbor's dog told him to kill. He was later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

Ed Gein was the inspiration for some of the scariest fictional killers, including Norman Bates and Leatherface. After being charged with the murder and mutilation of multiple victims, he was deemed unfit for trial and diagnosed with schizophrenia. Ten years later, he faced trial and was found guilty, but spent the rest of his days in a mental hospital

Jeffrey Dahmer was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. However, he was still found competent to stand trial for his 17 murders. He was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, but ended up being murdered by a fellow inmate

Richard Chase killed 6 people in Northern California and famously drank their blood, leading to his nickname, "The Vampire of Sacramento." Before his first murder, Chase was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and was institutionalized for a year. Despite his condition, Chase was not able to use an insanity plea in his case. He killed himself in prison.

Before Aileen Wuornos inspired the 2003 film Monster, she fatally shot seven men along Florida's highways. After she confessed, Aileen was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder by the state’s expert psychologist, Dr. Bernard. Despite that, Wuornos was sentenced to death, and eventually volunteered to receive lethal injection even after her sentence had been put on hold.
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lisabeth
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wow a lot have borderline personality disorder.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/basics/symptoms/CON-20023204

- unstable relationships
- fear of abandonment
- risky behaviours like binge gambing, drinking, sexual promiscuity, ect.
- lots of suicide threats and self infliction, drug abuse,
- sabotaging a good job, or any job, sabotaging any relationship.
basically unstable.
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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by trollbait
I like how people seem to discount the fact that Paul Bernado is no longer around her - he was her Achilles heel.

Couple serial killers will always work together - until one of them is taken out of the picture. However in Bernado's case, there is a possibility that even if he hadn't been with her, he would have continued with his deranged killings. He was already a serial rapist by the time he met her.
He never killed before meeting her... just a mere rapist
click to expand

omg.

I just realize and thought, maybe she urged him to kill because she got "jealous" of the fact that he got intimate with them?? I know that sounds SICK as hell but in a deranged mind, there is also the fact of jealous and insane possessiveness!!!

so in her deranged mind, she was jealous as hell that he was raping these women, but could NOT stop him, so she decided, why not let him kill them too since it took them out of the picture??

the jealousy and possessiveness is the huge motive here.

and that's why she kept the serial killer name. It's a very very possessive trait, and connection to her Bernardo. I feel she still wants him.

edit --

hm that also makes me think....if this is the way she is, she was JEALOUS of her sister too because Bernardo was looking at her sister and wanted to touch her. so having her out of the picture because Bernardo wanted her that way as sick as that is.....

*smh*

I know it don't make sense. but it actually does, there is a RAGE of jealousy and possessiveness in her, and she wanted Bernardo all to herself but couldn't because he has a rapist addiction.

he was the WEAK one.

APC revealed that she could be the orchestrated lead woman behind the sick, weak man, so they brought out the sickness in eachother.
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aquapiscescusp
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Lisa, you are seeing the whole picture....

She was extremely jealous of her sister because Bernardo loved her in his own weird way (he watched the video over and over of that night), plus she was a virgin and Karla wasn't. I have read quite a few things on this case and one thing that was said is Karla made her sister die that night because Bernardo had fallen asleep and it was Karla who witnessed the sister dying without doing anything. She later revealed this fact to Bernardo -- to hurt him-- as he was obsessed with the sister, even after her death. It is said that he beat her only after this revelation.

And you are right in saying she urged him to kill the girls (if she didn't do it herself) as twisted as he was, he was in fact -- taking care -- of them in his distorted way, he bought them little gifts and did other things for them (sick to the core, nonetheless). According to behavioural specialists, the killings do not fit with how he was with them.
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aquapiscescusp
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Posted by lisabethur8
I found this.

http://www.ranker.com/list/serial-killers-who-suffered-from-mental-illness/ranker-crime

David Berkowitz (aka the Son of Sam) was responsible for a crime spree from 1976-1977 that saw him take the lives of 6 people. After he was caught, Berkowitz claimed that his neighbor's dog told him to kill. He was later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

Ed Gein was the inspiration for some of the scariest fictional killers, including Norman Bates and Leatherface. After being charged with the murder and mutilation of multiple victims, he was deemed unfit for trial and diagnosed with schizophrenia. Ten years later, he faced trial and was found guilty, but spent the rest of his days in a mental hospital

Jeffrey Dahmer was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. However, he was still found competent to stand trial for his 17 murders. He was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, but ended up being murdered by a fellow inmate

Richard Chase killed 6 people in Northern California and famously drank their blood, leading to his nickname, "The Vampire of Sacramento." Before his first murder, Chase was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and was institutionalized for a year. Despite his condition, Chase was not able to use an insanity plea in his case. He killed himself in prison.

Before Aileen Wuornos inspired the 2003 film Monster, she fatally shot seven men along Florida's highways. After she confessed, Aileen was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder by the state’s expert psychologist, Dr. Bernard. Despite that, Wuornos was sentenced to death, and eventually volunteered to receive lethal injection even after her sentence had been put on hold.
what about TED BUNDY, he was some twisted savage... saw a special on him the other night... that one girl that got away but never told!!! I was a little pissed she never told anyone about being raped, she could have stopped others 😢
click to expand


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lisabeth
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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Lisa, you are seeing the whole picture....

She was extremely jealous of her sister because Bernardo loved her in his own weird way (he watched the video over and over of that night), plus she was a virgin and Karla wasn't. I have read quite a few things on this case and one thing that was said is Karla made her sister die that night because Bernardo had fallen asleep and it was Karla who witnessed the sister dying without doing anything. She later revealed this fact to Bernardo -- to hurt him-- as he was obsessed with the sister, even after her death. It is said that he beat her only after this revelation.

And you are right in saying she urged him to kill the girls (if she didn't do it herself) as twisted as he was, he was in fact -- taking care -- of them in his distorted way, he bought them little gifts and did other things for them (sick to the core, nonetheless). According to behavioural specialists, the killings do not fit with how he was with them.
I had to re-read to refresh my memory, and she left him only because he beat her up badly, so badly that the doctors at the hospital said it was the worst case they've ever seen.

I guess that was when she decided that he actually didn't love her. (like he could love? right)

thanks for revealing that about Bernardo falling asleep and she was the one who killed her sister /basically not doing anything.

if he beat her after that revelation, then he didn't really want her little sister to die?? even though he wanted those other innocent victims to die?
. Her chart, reveals a lot too, with dominant libra and Gemini shadow side, her intense need to partner with this man, (pleasing to accommodate his needs) she could be, most certainly the master mind of the whole thing being. he is crazy and unpredictable and she was riding all on his "addiction" after awhile...maybe? All huge guesses.
her possessiveness and jealousy is very much Taurus, although everything expressed shadow of course.

also I had a thought,

it's obvious she didn't care about her sister, and that she decided to foul up her death to cover his ass. I mean she might have thought, what if she wakes and tells everything? she couldn't have her and bernardo go to prison for what they did. but, doing the "act" of actually looking for the drug and to drug her sister has already gone far, not to mention all the other killings.

gosh, this woman was really under his hold in a bad way. It's like she tried to mastermind him, but then he's so unpredictable and crazy, that it didn't go her way. so weird!!!

she's like 40-45% air I notice and he has practically no air!!! he was mostly watery so he was sooo different from her. she tried to control him by using mind control/ "let's do it this way, to get him to do it my way" and he's like WTF, unpredictable moody emotional and beats he
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aquapiscescusp
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Not making excuses for them but no, they didn't intend to kill sister. It was to drug her to rape her. Keep in mind he was raping women before and even during their time together. He would go out at night and rape, come home and tell her. She wanted him to bring them home, so she could be part of it. She was trying to control the whole thing, but you can't control crazy, can you?

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lisabeth
@lisabethur8
13 Years50,000+ Posts

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Posted by aquapiscescusp
Not making excuses for them but no, they didn't intend to kill sister. It was to drug her to rape her. Keep in mind he was raping women before and even during their time together. He would go out at night and rape, come home and tell her. She wanted him to bring them home, so she could be part of it. She was trying to control the whole thing, but you can't control crazy, can you?
they're both crazy.

and not the good kind.

the mentally insane kind, where serial killers go, like ted bundy, Ed Gein, Charles manson, ect.

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lisabeth
@lisabethur8
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it's weird because it seems that Karla Homolka came from a good family background but then again, if you read the others, some of them didn't have it that hard. but something happened.


it's like you can actually make a MOVIE out of this. I can even ENVISION it.

Paul Bernardo actor: "baby, I need to do this, you know this," he holds her face wihle she takes in the moment of shock, and the raging jealousy inside her,

Karla actress: "Ok, but you gotta let me in on your next ok? I want to join in, cause I love you!"


it's like the movie, "Natural Born Killers"

it's so ridiculous!!!

and the saddest part is, is that it's not fiction.

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aquapiscescusp
@aquapiscescusp
14 Years10,000+ Posts

Comments: 33 · Posts: 13769 · Topics: 154
Posted by lisabethur8
it's weird because it seems that Karla Homolka came from a good family background but then again, if you read the others, some of them didn't have it that hard. but something happened.


it's like you can actually make a MOVIE out of this. I can even ENVISION it.

Paul Bernardo actor: "baby, I need to do this, you know this," he holds her face wihle she takes in the moment of shock, and the raging jealousy inside her,

Karla actress: "Ok, but you gotta let me in on your next ok? I want to join in, cause I love you!"


it's like the movie, "Natural Born Killers"

it's so ridiculous!!!

and the saddest part is, is that it's not fiction.
There is a movie out there called Karla. It's from her perspective, the victim. What you envisioned was similar to what was said in movie :/
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aquapiscescusp
@aquapiscescusp
14 Years10,000+ Posts

Comments: 33 · Posts: 13769 · Topics: 154
Posted by lisabethur8
Posted by aquapiscescusp
Not making excuses for them but no, they didn't intend to kill sister. It was to drug her to rape her. Keep in mind he was raping women before and even during their time together. He would go out at night and rape, come home and tell her. She wanted him to bring them home, so she could be part of it. She was trying to control the whole thing, but you can't control crazy, can you?
they're both crazy.

and not the good kind.

the mentally insane kind, where serial killers go, like ted bundy, Ed Gein, Charles manson, ect.

click to expand

Yes, and that's why people in this Montreal suburb are freaking out! But then you have those types who say, give her a chance....
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