Sex...more harm than good?

We live in a sex-obsessed society. If you think about a lot of the problems people encountered in the past or are experiencing right now, it seems that a lot of those problems can somehow be traced back to SEX.

Has the OVERALL aspect of sex of any kind/form been more of an asset/good thing in your life or has it birthed many negative experiences? I mean is sex really overrated OR is it underrated??

Examples:
Abortion. Poverty. Sexual abuse. Rape. Teen pregnancy. Unwanted pregnancies that result in children being given less than they deserve. Cheating (sex can def. be used as a weapon to hurt/betray someone). STDS. HIV. Crazy baby mamas/daddies. Emotional issues/baggage that came from some past experience where someone you gave it up to might've used you or hurt you (sex may not have been the reason things ended, but it's def. the 1 thing you gave up to that person that you may def. now wish you hadn't). Body image issues leading to self-esteem.

I bring up all ^^^ these issues b/c I think people too often think only about the GOOD/advantages to sex. Yes it feels great! And yes it's natural. But when I really think about it, there are def. more DISADVANTAGES overall than there are advantages.

I know, I know. People are gonna say, "Well sex is worth it if it's with the right person," but let's be honest. Most people have had their fare share of sex with people they didn't necessarily care 1 lick about..people they know they would never end up with...Just seems kind of silly to take allllll of those above risks for people you care nothing about.

Yes, stds & pregnancy can happen by accident too, but again this question is mainly about looking back to all your past issues/relationships/heartbreaks/issues with self-esteem or image/issues with society, etc. & asking yourself if sex has been more of a disadvantage to society than it has an advantage

Your thoughts—

Sex isn't the problem. It's the disconnection we have from it (and ourselves*) that leads to major issues, IMO.

*ourselves = mind/heart/bodies working in tandem

Posted by MissFisk
Rape isn't really about sex though.... Yes, there is a sexual act in itself but over all it's about control and power. Reading you bundle that in a sex-obsessed society kind of made me cringe because in a way you're blaming others for other's perverse sense of control.

Wait what?

You just said yourself that there is a sexual aspect in rape. Why? B/c there IS. There is no rape without sex. So how is it rational for you to say that rape carries a sexual aspect, but then go on to say you cringe when I say the very SAME thing?

The reason for the sexual aspect in rape can differ & is something totally separate. The reasoning for the action and the action itself are 2 different things. I wasn't talking about the reasoning behind it. I was talking about the action itself. It does involve sex. No getting around that. Me saying that rape involves sex is NOT the same as me saying it's the victim's fault wtf 2 totally different things!

Posted by arietteheart2
How are you linking sex to poverty? lol
Abortion? As a medical professional that you claim to be...I'm just shaking my head at you seeing abortion as a "problem", especially since you think teen pregnancy is also a problem.

Sex as a disadvantage to society? LMFAO...well since it's required for procreation, I'm going to say that overall it's more advantageous

Oh geez...you're pretty ignorant if you don't see how poverty is linked to population control, considering population control is attributed directly from sex! Sex = baby. If the means to give proper nutrition and/or financial stability isn't there, then poverty results. Come on now, I know you're intelligent enough to know that.

I never said that I was for abortion or for teen pregnancy, so don't bring my "medical professional" experience into this just for the sake of changing the subject, throwing jabs or making this about me.

Abortion sometimes happens when people have what? SEX! Whether it's right or wrong is a different topic, so don't put words in my mouth.

Teen pregnancy when teens have what? SEX! Again, whether it's right or wrong is a different topic, so don't put words in my mouth. And don't think teen pregnancy hasn't been a huge problem for many children & families. This is why so many people hate the show "16 & pregnant." They feel that it glorifies teen pregnancy. Why would that be offensive? Well b/c it can be a HUGE problem to the parents/families of those teens who are getting pregnant. To act as if you don't see how that could be a problem for some people is just you being out of touch with reality honey.

If your answer is that you feel sex is more of an advantage, that's fine. It's ok to disagree. But just b/c something may not have been a problem/experience for you doesn't mean that certain things related to sex haven't been a problem for others.

A person who's got HIV or who has medical issues related to having an abortion might answer my original question very differently. Respect that

Posted by Andalusia
Sex isn't the problem. It's the disconnection we have from it (and ourselves*) that leads to major issues, IMO.

*ourselves = mind/heart/bodies working in tandem

Interesting point.

Like you said, the action of sex itself may not be the problem. It's that sex can def. be the underlying cause for a disconnection with ourselves/others, which implies that sex may be the common denominator. And if it's the common denominator, then the aspect of sex itself cannot be ruled out as the original culprit.

Posted by arietteheart2

And don't think teen pregnancy hasn't been a huge problem for many children & families. This is why so many people hate the show "16 & pregnant." They feel that it glorifies teen pregnancy. Why would that be offensive? Well b/c it can be a HUGE problem to the parents/families of those teens who are getting pregnant. To act as if you don't see how that could be a problem for some people is just you being out of touch with reality honey.

Is that why teen pregnancy rate is the lowest it has ever been in 40 years?

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You are literally missing the whole point. I don't need your statistics. This is about principle. Until the teen pregnancy rates decreases to ZERO, there will be some families/teens who will have and do have a problem with teen pregnancy.

What you just asked is like asking if crime should be considered annoying or a bad thing just b/c crime may have declined in recent years. The principle is that unless the crime rate drops to zero, crime can/will be a problem to certain individuals, especially the individuals directly affected by it. Again, just b/c something isn't an issue or experience for you doesn't mean it isn't for others. Don't undermine some very real issues that others may be experiencing just b/c nothing of the sort is happening in your little world.

My thoughts, yeah, it's overrated. When masturbation always gets you off and has no strings attached. Why have sex and risk your own health if you can do it better yourself? Though, if you have a good partner that you can trust it doesn't hurt to have both. But, even if people don't have a good or trustworthy partner they probably won't abstain from sex just out of fear of bringing themselves or others to harm.

Posted by Arielle83
I agree with the op. Sex can opress or repress someone. It can put ppl in horrible situations. And a teen pregnancy stat is arbitrary. In what country is it down 40 percent? What about the 1 child policy and the disregard for female babies over males? Or ppl having kids for welfare checks? Sex is manipulated 2 benefit the individual these days for external gain.

Thank you! You actually get it!!

The reality for a lot of folks is that sex has def. brought more oppression to their lives overall.

I cringe every time I hear about women purposely having sex for welfare checks. I hate that some women don't feel beautiful enough b/c our sex and beauty obsessed society expects them to look like celebrities & porn stars, both in the outside world & in the bedroom. I hate that people sometimes knowingly & unknowingly use sex as a weapon to hurt themselves or others. It sucks that some people don't acknowledge that some of their sexual decisions have led to emotional & physical repercussions.

This 1 guy is all over the internet talking trash about all the crazy women in his life. Yeah, they may be bitter, crazy, blah blah blah, BUT the 1 thing he's missing (bc he doesn't want to take accountability for his OWN part in this mess) is that he slept with them all!!

He used them like they were sexual objects. He knocked them all up. He didn't get to know them. He didn't use protection. And yet THEY are the ones who are crazy? No!! HE is the 1 who shares that "crazy" right along with them b/c he thought he was invincible from any of the consequences of sex with the wrong people. He thought that 20 second nut was all that mattered!

^^^ He thought sex was underrated until his azz got caught up! It's like dude your life is a mess to some extent b/c of all of the bad sexual decisions you've made. Own that!!!

Posted by JezeJas
My thoughts, yeah, it's overrated. When masturbation always gets you off and has no strings attached. Why have sex and risk your own health if you can do it better yourself? Though, if you have a good partner that you can trust it doesn't hurt to have both. But, even if people don't have a good or trustworthy partner they probably won't abstain from sex just out of fear of bringing themselves or others to harm.

This quote is so true ------> In the age of nothing but resources & information, there is NO excuse for being ignorant.

Taking the unprotected wild risk with your partner is 1 thing (and even then, some people are in a relationship/marriage that they KNOW deep down is not monogamous). But so many people take all those risks and gambles with their physical and emotional health, that it makes you wonder who raised them! Were they not listening in sex education class when stds, unwanted pregnancy & HIV were discussed?

What went wrong?! When did it become ok to play Russian roulette with your life via sexual decisions?!

Posted by krysrenee7

Posted by Andalusia
Sex isn't the problem. It's the disconnection we have from it (and ourselves*) that leads to major issues, IMO.

*ourselves = mind/heart/bodies working in tandem

Interesting point.

Like you said, the action of sex itself may not be the problem. It's that sex can def. be the underlying cause for a disconnection with ourselves/others, which implies that sex may be the common denominator. And if it's the common denominator, then the aspect of sex itself cannot be ruled out as the original culprit.

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IF this were true: "sex can def. be the underlying cause for a disconnection with ourselves/others... "

What is your solution?

^^^ Well imagine the difference it'd make in the STD world if 100% of people started using condoms or abstinence. It would shatter STD statistics. So many lives & tax dollars would be saved. And that's just ONE aspect of how sex can affect a person's quality/span of life.

All solutions may not seem realistic or doable to the average person, but nonetheless, if more people closed their legs, many sexually-related consequences would decrease or cease to exist almost immediately.

Posted by Montgomery

Posted by krysrenee7

Posted by Andalusia
Sex isn't the problem. It's the disconnection we have from it (and ourselves*) that leads to major issues, IMO.

*ourselves = mind/heart/bodies working in tandem

Interesting point.

Like you said, the action of sex itself may not be the problem. It's that sex can def. be the underlying cause for a disconnection with ourselves/others, which implies that sex may be the common denominator. And if it's the common denominator, then the aspect of sex itself cannot be ruled out as the original culprit.

IF this were true: "sex can def. be the underlying cause for a disconnection with ourselves/others... "

What is your solution?

Posted by krysrenee7
^^^ Well imagine the difference it'd make in the STD world if 100% of people started using condoms or abstinence. It would shatter STD statistics. So many lives & tax dollars would be saved. And that's just ONE aspect of how sex can affect a person's quality/span of life.

All solutions may not seem realistic or doable to the average person, but nonetheless, if more people closed their legs, many sexually-related consequences would decrease or cease to exist almost immediately.

Ok.

But the larger problem, imo, is irresponsibility, disillusionment, ignorance, and indifference.

STD's, wasted tax dollars, lives screwed up or lost etc-- those are just symptoms.

In other words (and like andalusia said), sex, itself, does not cause the disconnect (directly or indirectly).

The way sex is viewed and "practiced" today is the result of a disconnect that already existed.

Posted by tiziani
Sex is always overrated. That doesn't mean it's negative. I don't think sex is a "problem" that needs a solution. It's bigger than the act itself and literally influences every single interaction we have in life. The best answer is education in my opinion and reading books like Napoleon Hill's work.

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I agree (bold).



Interesting topic, K7.

Understandable

Whether sex is the symptom or the root cause, "sex" is still a part of the equation.

I agree, I think the convo about sex being more of a problem or asset in one's life goes way deeper & beyond the act of sex itself.

With all that comes before AND after sex and the in between, has it been more of an asset to your life or more problematic?

I think you're 1 of the few people who understands how deep this topic goes. The convo is about going beneath the surface, reflecting & analyzing whether or not sex (the act itself or the symptoms/root cause of it) has played more of a good role or bad role in your life.

I get that some people will say "both," but I'm sure the answer isn't 50/50 for everybody

Posted by arietteheart2

Posted by tiziani
Sex is always overrated. That doesn't mean it's negative. I don't think sex is a "problem" that needs a solution. It's bigger than the act itself and literally influences every single interaction we have in life. The best answer is education in my opinion and reading books like Napoleon Hill's work.

This 100% . Sex is not the problem that needs a solution.

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It def. can be the problem in certain circumstances.

For example, having the act of sex itself can bring direct consequences that would not have occurred had you not had the act of sex itself.

Even some of the most high-esteem individuals have suffered direct consequences stemming from sex itself. I say that b/c a person's 1st response to that is that it must be some deeper reasoning behind why the person chose to have sex. Low self-esteem, impulse & ignorance is not always the #1 reason behind why people engage in the act of sex itself. Direct consequences of sex itself can affect any & everybody, regardless of self-image, mental state, race or age.

In some cases, abstinence is absolutely the solution. Doesn't mean people have the discipline to implement the solution, but nonetheless, anything that can prevent consequences in the absence of a specific action is technically a "solution."

Posted by tiziani


This is just like the old "guns don't kill people, people do" argument.

Now that ^^^summed it up perfectly!

Posted by tiziani
Sex is always overrated. That doesn't mean it's negative. I don't think sex is a "problem" that needs a solution.

Right. Dry humping! jk

Does is really come down to sex as the issue? From most of your points it seems that the real issue that's doing people harm is lack of education and lack of intelligence/forethought to use protection to avoid the negatives of sex. It's all about how a person chooses to act. Just like taking other risks - speeding, drunk driving, etc. People can choose to drive safely and people can choose to have sex safely, or they can do it irresponsibly. The people who participate in the risks believe that 'it won't happen to them', which is true for any risk taking activity. Driving itself is a risk, but people choose to do so because the positives outweigh the perceived risks. Same thing for sex. They choose pleasure and intimacy over the risk of pregnancy and STDs. It's simply how humans work. If it isn't sex, it's something else people are taking risks on. So, no, I don't believe sex is the real issue here. If people really believed that the negatives of sex outweighed the positive, then they simply would not have sex. But, as you can see, most people aren't choosing abstinence.

Posted by Arielle83
I dont think you can tell a rape victim or someone who was molested 'things would have been different if your attacker was properly educated on sexual etiquette'
Sex is always going to be abused or misguided no matter who you educate. And you cant educate every culture with the same values you believe are the most important because that's ethnocentric.

In my post I said 'most' of the things she mentioned could be solved that way. Rape indeed is not one of them. Rape comes down to power. In every culture. To stop that, it's a bit harder. People need to take precautions to rape, sadly. In a certain part of Africa, women are wearing mechanisms in their vaginas that will mutilate a rapist's dick. To take a proactive approach to avoiding rape, people need to teach their children to not rape instead of what to do to avoid becoming a victim.

Posted by Arielle83
But the act of sex has been used against the victim 2 dominate with power. Sex is being abused and opressing someone.
Someone who has been victimized in this way cannot necissarily distinguish between the two. Sex becomes a weapon

They can't distinguish between what? Sex for pleasure and sex for power? I'm unsure of what you're saying. Either way, what you said goes along with what I was saying in my original post. Sex is simply a tool...a medium. A gun is a medium, as well. You can use it for protection or for harm. The person behind the weapon is where the problem lies. Therefore, sex is not the problem.

Posted by Arielle83
But the act of sex has been used against the victim 2 dominate with power. Sex is being abused and opressing someone.
Someone who has been victimized in this way cannot necissarily distinguish between the two. Sex becomes a weapon

Right! You actually get it!!!

The point is that sex can be a weapon. Doesn't matter why, who, what, when, where, or how. Sex is the common denominator in anything sexually related lol How people are debating that is crazy!

There's a deep reason for why people do drugs, but if someone were to ask if drugs had more of a bad impact or good impact in life, that'd be like saying, "Well the drug itself isn't ever bad. It's the deeper meaning behind it that matters." It's like yeaaaaaah but that deeper meaning LED to the drugs lol. You can't take "drugs" out of a drug-relate situation

Sex is a tool used for escape, to harm others, to manipulate others, to gain popularity, etc. The deeper meanings aren't irrelevant, but if the outcome or outlet to those deeper meanings is SEX, then it is what it is!

Posted by krysrenee7


The point is that sex can be a weapon. Doesn't matter why, who, what, when, where, or how. Sex is the common denominator in anything sexually related lol How people are debating that is crazy!

Why do you make topics if you already know the 'right' answer and question why people debate things? If you know the answer and think everyone who disagrees is wrong, then there's no point to posting a discussion topic or asking us for our thoughts.

@Scenic:

You're missing the point. I don't think you realize that you're actually agreeing with me. You said that sex itself is not the problem, but instead is just the final destination due to the hidden meaning leading up to the act of sex itself. Sex is their weapon of choice, whether they're going into it hoping to get pleasure or pain once it's all said & done.

DUH!!! The reasons for having sex all differ, BUT sex is the outcome. With that being said, I was asking if people's reasons behind wanting to use sex as a tool for WHATEVER reason, did more harm than good in their lives?! There is no right or wrong answer!

I don't see how you're not comprehending that!

Example: A a girl has low self-esteem & is told by her peers that having sex will make guys like her more. So she uses sex as a tool for what she THINKS will be an asset to her ego, pride & sense of self-worth. 25 years later, this same girl realizes that the only thing she gained from all that sex was loss of respect from her peers & further ridicule of herself to herself. If she were to see my original question, she may say that her choice to choose sex as an outlet/tool/weapon caused more pain overall in her life than good well being!

So for you to say that in her case, "sex" has nothing to do with it doesn't make any sense.

If someone gets shot by a gun, both the gun AND the person who pulled the trigger get taken into account, analyzed & go down with the crime. You can't have 1 without the other. Your saying there wouldn't have been a murder without the person pulling the trigger & I'm saying a person can't pull a trigger without the gun itself. Neither of us are wrong for considering BOTH factors (the gun & the person)to be the likely cause for a horrible or great outcome. Do you realize now that you're playing semantics with me?

If a person has always used sex to fill voids, disrespect themselves, get a sense of belonging that led to nothing but rejection, and/or has been cheated on b/c their partner used sex itself to betray them, then YES their answer would be that although sex may have been pleasurable & lucrative in their life some of the time, OVERALL, sex (including the reasons behind having it) have had more of a NEGATIVE impact on their life.

Posted by Scenic

Posted by krysrenee7


The point is that sex can be a weapon. Doesn't matter why, who, what, when, where, or how. Sex is the common denominator in anything sexually related lol How people are debating that is crazy!

Why do you make topics if you already know the 'right' answer and question why people debate things? If you know the answer and think everyone who disagrees is wrong, then there's no point to posting a discussion topic or asking us for our thoughts.

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You didn't answer my original question with a yes or a no. If you notice, I never once said that someone who answered "yes" or "no" was in the wrong.

Instead you wanted to play semantics & debate whether or not the question was a fair one. You're trying to say that sex itself is not the main problem as if I don't know that! My point was that the reasons behind it all vary, BUT if all those reasons lead to the act of sex, then the question absolutely makes sense. THAT is what I'm arguing with you about. Huge difference

I said nothing about whether your points agreed with mine. I said that you saying that someone's opinion is 'right' is dismissing everyone else's opinion and thus, defeats the purpose of a discussion topic. If you do not have an open mind and instead have a firm view on an issue, there is no need to ask to discuss the issue.

Your example makes it clear that we're emphasizing different sides of the same issue, which still means we're arguing different things. Don't dismiss what I say by saying 'it doesn't make sense'. It most certainly does.

Posted by krysrenee7

Posted by Scenic

Posted by krysrenee7


The point is that sex can be a weapon. Doesn't matter why, who, what, when, where, or how. Sex is the common denominator in anything sexually related lol How people are debating that is crazy!

Why do you make topics if you already know the 'right' answer and question why people debate things? If you know the answer and think everyone who disagrees is wrong, then there's no point to posting a discussion topic or asking us for our thoughts.

You didn't answer my original question with a yes or a no. If you notice, I never once said that someone who answered "yes" or "no" was in the wrong.

Instead you wanted to play semantics & debate whether or not the question was a fair one. You're trying to say that sex itself is not the main problem as if I don't know that! My point was that the reasons behind it all vary, BUT if all those reasons lead to the act of sex, then the question absolutely makes sense. THAT is what I'm arguing with you about. Huge difference

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I set up my own point of view and issues in my original post and ended it with "If people really believed that the negatives of sex outweighed the positive, then they simply would not have sex. But, as you can see, most people aren't choosing abstinence." Which, if you notice, is a DIRECT response to your question. Am I not allowed to discuss all aspects of the issue? Either way, I did leave you with a proper response, even if it was just one line.

Posted by Arielle83
A sex abuse victim does not distinguish between rape not being an act of sex versus that of power. They just feel sexually violated and vulnerable and then have ill feelings towards sex. Sex has harmed the victim

And I would say that in fact it was the PERSON who harmed the victim. I would argue that in rape scenarios, the person has more fear/hate for the person who committed the act or people who are similar to the rapist (such as disliking/fearing men) rather than fearing/disliking sex.

Posted by Scenic

Posted by Arielle83
A sex abuse victim does not distinguish between rape not being an act of sex versus that of power. They just feel sexually violated and vulnerable and then have ill feelings towards sex. Sex has harmed the victim

And I would say that in fact it was the PERSON who harmed the victim. I would argue that in rape scenarios, the person has more fear/hate for the person who committed the act or people who are similar to the rapist (such as disliking/fearing men) rather than fearing/disliking sex.

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In the case of rape, both of these views would most likely be true. But, from this, once can see that the blame is being placed in two different places. The act and the actor. The person does the harming while s/he acts it out through sex. It would be hard for either of us to provide facts to back our claims here so I'd prefer not to argue further on this particular issue. It would end up with circular conversation. Perhaps a better means of arguing our claims will be provided through this thread.

Excellent topic! The problem is not necessarily sex, but rather idiotic people who don't have it responsibly. Responsibly being the keyword! I think people should only have sex with people they see a future with, not use it as a tool to get love, keep a guy etc. There are just too many issues/ risk that emerge from having sex. Women like to think that nothing happens to them by having multiple sexual partners over the years, but in reality it screws up their psyche way more than men's. As for men, they also need to stop using women as sexual objects because that puts our society in crisis. Sadly, men dictate the society, always have and always will. If they start thinking with their penis and do anything to get sex from a woman, what you get is a lot of demented women walking around, who are most likely single mothers or underage pregnancy, children with attention deficit or psychological issues because they aren't coming from a proper family structure, stupid players with no respect for women (this issue ties in with women giving it up easily). Basically, no man will be making a wife out of a woman and what you get is a society full of bastard children with serious mommy/daddy issues because they don't have proper families to begin with. Then, follows a domino effect. :O Wait a min! I just described our present society except the domino effect is expected to get much worse.

If people were not blindly doing it, we'd really be avoiding prevalent issues like teen pregnancy and couple others that Krys mentioned.

@Scenic: You're not getting it. You're making things more complicated than they have to be.

I said sex itself can be a big problem AND that the deeper reasoning leading to the act of sex itself can also be the big problem. There are specific instances of both! I gave specific instances of both!

You've been b***tching this whole time about how sex itself can't ever be the culprit, & when I and others gave you specific examples to prove YOUR close-mindedness, you suddenly changed your tune & are now making it seem as if I don't comprehend that sometimes the act of sex itself is not always the main problem.

DUH! I said that a long time ago! My problem with you isn't that you wanted to discuss all aspects of a topic. My issue is that you keep implying that I'm not comprehending something that I actually said I did from the very beginning. Hence the reason I wanted to bring it to your attention that you were actually agreeing with me w/o even realizing it.

With that being said, I'm done arguing with you.

Posted by aquarius09
Excellent topic! The problem is not necessarily sex, but rather idiotic people who don't have it responsibly. Responsibly being the keyword! I think people should only have sex with people they see a future with, not use it as a tool to get love, keep a guy etc. There are just too many issues/ risk that emerge from having sex. Women like to think that nothing happens to them by having multiple sexual partners over the years, but in reality it screws up their psyche way more than men's. As for men, they also need to stop using women as sexual objects because that puts our society in crisis. Sadly, men dictate the society, always have and always will. If they start thinking with their penis and do anything to get sex from a woman, what you get is a lot of demented women walking around, who are most likely single mothers or underage pregnancy, children with attention deficit or psychological issues because they aren't coming from a proper family structure, stupid players with no respect for women (this issue ties in with women giving it up easily). Basically, no man will be making a wife out of a woman and what you get is a society full of bastard children with serious mommy/daddy issues because they don't have proper families to begin with. Then, follows a domino effect. :O Wait a min! I just described our present society except the domino effect is expected to get much worse.

If people were not blindly doing it, we'd really be avoiding prevalent issues like teen pregnancy and couple others that Krys mentioned.

YES! You get it!!

I think that when people hear the word "sex" there's both negative AND positive connotations behind it. And that's fair, especially considering that some people are suffering some harsh emotional/physical/financial consequences b/c of a bad lapse in judgment regarding sex.

If 2 people are married, are monogamous & have no reason to not have sex with each other, that doesn't exempt them from the consequences of sex itself. If she gets pregnant & they can't afford to raise a baby & refuse to have the baby, then that night of "sex" just became sort of a bad thing. Not only bad for the baby who has to be aborted now, but also bad for the couple who now have to go through the motions of that (especially the woman who may never emotionally or even physically recover from that)

^^^ 1 example of how the act of sex

^^^ 1 example of how the act of sex itself can lead to long term consequences even though the act of sex itself was had with the RIGHT person for originally the RIGHT reason (intimacy).

: / You're so repetitive. You've said all this stuff before, and I responded. If you think I'm not understanding you, then you're equally not understanding me. I never changed my stance so I'm not sure how I changed my 'tune'. The only time I went a little bit off what I was originally saying was during the specific example Ari and I were discussing. And thanks for saying I'm bitching instead of trying to debate or discuss. Real cute. There have been very few differences in how we debate and choose to discuss, though I exclude insults, at least. Therefore, I'm not sure how I'M close minded yet you're not seeing as how we are both being firm in our stances and discussing to the same degree.

I've participated in one of your threads before and it's funny that it ended the same exact way as this. I apparently never understand the content of the discussion or what's being said and I'm consistently in the wrong, according to you. It's curious that only in your threads do people say this about me.