RobertWagner (Page 2)

i have to go look up tennesse williams films on youtube then. we dont have any on netflix. lol

we dont watch television...only netflix. and mostly on tv are local stuff.

Posted by sierra_

Posted by CopperDove

Posted by sierra_

Posted by CopperDove

Posted by sierra_

Posted by CopperDove

Posted by sierra_

Posted by CopperDove

Posted by sierra_

Posted by CopperDove
It's all very strange for sure. Last I knew, Wagner was refusing to talk (since this has been opened up again, I mean). I wouldn't be surprised if Wagner did it, but hard to know. I'm pretty sure that Wagner and Walken know a lot more than they'll ever say.

Speaking of Natalie Wood, I recently watched and really liked This Property is Condemned (1966). It was based on a one act play by Tennessee Williams.

i like the way he writes women

i've always been fascinated how men write women

Do you have any recommendations -- favourite works of his? I want to familiarize myself with his style more.

I definitely want to read the one act play that the film was based on. Same title as the film.

The Loss of a Teardrop Diamond 🙂

You know, I think that most of his works are the way they are coz of his own childhood. His dad had a temper and was quite violent while his mother always babied him. He must've seen the relationship between men and women as.. not so ideal like men take from women sexually and women's sanity relies on a man's view of her.

Thanks very much for both recommendations!

That's interesting about his childhood and how it could shape his perceptions. Definitely that dynamic is present in the film adaptation of his play This Property is Condemned. I'm curious to see if it's a stronger undercurrent in the play.

I was reading about his sister's schizophrenia and how she was lobotomized which was a disaster so she wasn't functional. Very sad.

Yeah and I think he may feel a great sympathy for women coz of his mother and sister.

You can definitely see that in his works where women seem to rely mentally on men.

I suspect he thinks that the relationship is not at all equal and that men probably take/get more from the relationship. One time, a friend told me that she (an aqua sun and I think Tennessee Williams had an aqua moon) thought that homosexual relationships seemed to be more "selfless" and of equal footing coz same sex people can't take as much from each other since procreation is not a necessary part of the equation (which she saw as something that heterosexual relationships usually have). In same sex relationships, there's only either love or lust or both.. not that these aren't also part of heterosexual relationships but conventionally-speaking, there is always in men and women the urge to procreate.

Seeing women as sympathetic and relating more to them with how they struggle with the ravages of time on their looks and how they must always take care of their appearance... and thinking he would take more away from them.. he turned to his equals which to him- are men. That's probably what critics of his time thought of his homosexuality and how it impacted his works.

And even though I know that homosexuality isn't exactly a choice, I feel as if his childhood and family definitely did have an effect in his sexuality which in turn colored his works.

He makes great tragic, delusional women.

Your friend's observation is a good topic for discussion.

The nature vs nurture question about homosexuality continues to be controversial of course, looking at views in different cultures depending on what is considered to be natural, but I've read and heard things that make me think that it could be one or both in specific people, even though generally my sense is that it's innate, like you're saying.

The question about whether Tennessee Williams' experiences when young shaped his choice makes me think of a relative I had (past tense, because she died a few years ago) who said that her sexual relationships with women in her younger years were because starting in her early life she tried to be more masculine to please her older brother who wanted to have a brother, not a sister. She also had a difficult father who died when she was very young. She had sexual relationships with men when young, then only with women, then with neither. In her later years, she said that her relationships with women were a product of her upbringing, not her natural inclination. I think that she was likely bisexual, and her choice of being with men vs women, then the other way around, might have been influenced by upbringing and her responses to it. But, that isn't what she would say about herself, and I can't claim to know for sure of course.

Moving aside sexual expression, I've known several men who had very difficult fathers and, in comparison, kind mothers and they have a mistrust of men compared to women that never goes away.

I also knew a woman who in her younger years had been sexually assaulted by a male relative when she was much younger which gave her a mistrust and dislike for men. She never told any of her family members coz her parents were very neglectful of her anyway and she felt very ashamed.

Maybe sometimes there is a choice there.

She herself acknowledged that maybe the incident did contribute to her sexuality.

That's another good example of what might happen with some people. Did she get help outside of her family? It's terrible how family dynamics can affect this kind of thing and prevent people from getting help in some cases, if there is help of any kind (depending on the culture, etc).

I forgot to mention that my relative was an Aqua sun.

If you ever watch This Property is Condemned (1966), please let me know what you think about how it deals with themes that are present in Tennessee Williams' work. Natalie Wood, IMO, does an excellent job portraying a woman who behaves in ways that reflect what her options seem to be in life, and the actress who portrays her younger sister does an equally good job representing an almost opposite way of dealing with the same limits.

It became easier on her when her eldest brother came out. She can at least finally tell her parents she's gay even if she couldn't tell them what happened to her back then. I've met her parents and they seem like the type who love each other more than they do their children. I really shouldn't say that but there are people who admit to that, so why not? This friend of mine's a Pisces sun though.

They tolerate it but they used to force her to marry this boy they chose for her. She ran away but they reconciled when her eldest brother confessed he was gay.

Anyhow..

This Property is Condemned's female leads are definitely in keeping with Tennessee Williams' tragic heroines. They have a childlike innocence, naivety with their sanity and survival dependent on men. How did Alva and Willie survived? By the grace of other men, by Alva prostituting herself and in her death.. her sister emulates her.

You can see how the writer sees women as selfless, helpless and fragile... victims of both men and life.

They can be beautiful, bright and interesting but they are always doomed.

click to expand

I'm glad that she could be open about that at least, finally, but I know what you mean about parents who love each other more than their children to the point that the children are neglected. Or, the parents have a love of something else that's far greater than how they feel about their children so that's their focus (money, for example).

Thanks very much for your answer about This Property is Condemned. After watching it, I was sad in a way that is hard to describe, except to say that I was very aware that this has been, and continues to be (depending on the culture one is in), a limitation with options that many women have faced, and how wrong it is that some authors and artists (not Tennessee Williams thankfully) so often reduce characters like Alva to an archetype that is evil or so simplistic it's insulting. I don't know if I'm articulating this well, but it's a positive statement about Tennessee Williams' deeper insight and makes me want to read his work. I understand that there is a negative perception too about women built into his work, as you were describing.

Posted by sierra_

Posted by lisabethur8
@sierra...



they is showing alot of sexual themes on the news (sex predators) even this too!!



https://www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/dark-secrets-behind-tom-brady-gisele-bundchens-perfect-marriage.html/7/

click to expand

i just got done watching that...



whoa i dont even know some of those actors. i dont watch gossip girl or anything or those tv shows.

anyway, i saw ben affleck's statements. lol

it's kind of funny since the other day on the Danny masterson topic.... we discussed about rose mcgowan's assault and she told affleck, and he said, 'dammit i told him not to do that.' but he sounds so offended in the statements....

i saw she married a capricorn man but only lasted less than 3 years. she was with marilyn manson, another cappy. and he dates libras and virgos.

Posted by sierra_

Posted by lisabethur8

Posted by sierra_

Posted by lisabethur8
@sierra...



they is showing alot of sexual themes on the news (sex predators) even this too!!



https://www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/dark-secrets-behind-tom-brady-gisele-bundchens-perfect-marriage.html/7/

i just got done watching that...



whoa i dont even know some of those actors. i dont watch gossip girl or anything or those tv shows.

anyway, i saw ben affleck's statements. lol

it's kind of funny since the other day on the Danny masterson topic.... we discussed about rose mcgowan's assault and she told affleck, and he said, 'dammit i told him not to do that.' but he sounds so offended in the statements....

i saw she married a capricorn man but only lasted less than 3 years. she was with marilyn manson, another cappy. and he dates libras and virgos.

yeah virgos seem to like him

probably coz he's a cap sun-pisces venus

click to expand

yeah and the trine too.

i dont know why Dita Von Teese...she's libra sun, gemini moon.

i can only guess because she's airy and he's got fire.



also all these predators during this transit, it is kind of sad in another way because these guys worked so hard for their career. and then all of it went crashing down. and they lost it all ...all because they were abusive to other people.



it kind of makes sense why jupiter in libra comes before scorpio

be fair and kind ...take care of your relationships. i find libra to be more forgiving, giving chances, and this transit is YEARS...

or else scorpio will come along... all or nothing.

@sierra_

Good points again. Multi-faceted definitely is as it should be.