A genuine question (Page 3)

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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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Posted by grayid2
Posted by guah


I would be pretty biased if I said it didn't say something that you and another gentlemen could guess my sun sign and some infl....ies, not whats happened here today. I will say i'm more convinced, yes. But it probably won't change how I live, if I'm honest.



Ok. No problem. You're reacting perfectly logically, you still dont have proof but you're impressed, and you want to focus on your life and leave astro alone, ok, I get it. Maybe there's a religious element to it too, maybe we're not supposed to know our destiny. I think like that sometimes.
So all in all, positive experience and discussion. We really saved the plane from crashing. Phew...what a debate hey🙂
click to expand




Indeed!
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grayid2
@grayid2
11 Years1,000+ Posts

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Posted by DwellingOnMove
good night guys. it was fun. thanks for compliments.

(of course it's all online. and we cannot be sure if the catfish has the birthday he says. but for now let us believe it.)



Night dude- haha yeah he could be lying, but he has no reason to and he seems REAAAALLY genuine. So...

Lets say he has an almost infinite supply of energy...and he easily connects with people and he's super perceptive. His Sag Sun, and Leo Mars will make him successful and have a cool life!
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grayid2
@grayid2
11 Years1,000+ Posts

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Posted by partiallyimpartial
Posted by grayid2
Lol Partial I will not answer you if you treat me like that. 🙂 fugg off.




oh tard... i know cognitive dissonance hurts. its a REAL thing. i should have more empathy, like OP. but i happen to believe you need the bullying

itll help you grow strong


the fact that you think i care if you answer or not?


but in all fairness, i wouldnt abuse you so if you didnt keep trying to impress me. i never pretended otherwise.


so here's the deal- you fuck off and ill stop bitch slapping you
click to expand




No dude, your last insult was too much, uncalled for. It's hard to find a balance, I know, you have to defend your honor and insult the person back, but you don't want to overdo it, or the back and forth will keep on escalating. It's tough to make the right decision...
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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

Comments: 252 · Posts: 36418 · Topics: 473
I guess if there's anything in common and observable about any system of beliefs..it's how attached everyone is to theirs.. We haz to be right at all costs.

Take a room with people in it. View it from the perspective of a religious person and you'll instantly draw up 2 categories.

Or be an astrologer and divide it into 12 different groups.

etc etc. There will never be any pattern because all patterns depend on the perspective. And when we see one pattern, we immediately dismiss the rest that might still apply. We need some certainty to grasp, a point for our causes, a meaning to our lives. Pretty sure there is none.

Not even about the room and the people in it anymore. We just project fantasies into it. Was there any room actually to begin with?

To say "let's take everything with a grain of salt" is putting it mildly.
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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Posted by seraph
If it at minimum encourages you to engage in self-inquiry, then it's already rendered an important service.

There's no need to overthink it. It's just another way of perceiving your relationship to everything else. It's neither as real or unreal as the personally biased strictures you're applying to it.

Accept that - like what you and I try to do - astrology looks to understand people and events based on patterns. It's not without its imperfections, but neither is any other method. The only easy method is to accept these imperfections, so that you can look at all of it undisturbed and with total equanimity.



Interesting point of view. Although I'll have to disagree that science can be compared to astrology in terms of bias. The scientific method is incredibly thorough and also accounts for many of the holes that astrology is accused of. But, I only say that for the sake of keeping things objective. I am pretty blown away that my sun sign was guessed, my primary aspects were guessed, and my moon sign was guessed. As I said earlier, I just believe that to observe ones self too thoroughly is to no longer act natural. And I believe to act natural is to walk ones natural path. And that is really my biggest goal, to stay on the path that is truest to who I am. And for me, it feels more natural to not analyze myself too much, and to focus on the moment. But that's me. If it feels more natural for someone to analyze things astrologically, then I believe thats the best thing they could do! So it's really just my beliefs conflicting with other beliefs. I'm aware of that.
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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And I should add before I made this thread, my beliefs were different. I believed there were no real uses to astrology, even if it were proven to be real some day. But because of the science of critical thinking and my understanding that I could be bias, I made this thread. I wanted to contemplate by way of debate, and because of that it's changed my perspective into a more positive one. And I have the philosophy of science to thank for that, since this was all done based off knowledge I attained from it. And I met some pretty cool people too!
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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Posted by Damnata
I guess if there's anything in common and observable about any system of beliefs..it's how attached everyone is to theirs.. We haz to be right at all costs.

Take a room with people in it. View it from the perspective of a religious person and you'll instantly draw up 2 categories.

Or be an astrologer and divide it into 12 different groups.

etc etc. There will never be any pattern because all patterns depend on the perspective. And when we see one pattern, we immediately dismiss the rest that might still apply. We need some certainty to grasp, a point for our causes, a meaning to our lives. Pretty sure there is none.

Not even about the room and the people in it anymore. We just project fantasies into it. Was there any room actually to begin with?

To say "let's take everything with a grain of salt" is putting it mildly.



Definitely true! There is usually quite a bit of pride and work on the line when it comes to beliefs. That is why its important to respect peoples beliefs, because its not just an idea, its a passion. It's peoples time, money, energy, and emotions. As long as they aren't harming people, give them the freedom to pursue their happiness. That said, it's always nice when people can step out of the passion and just debate for the sake of new perspectives! I still have trouble with it sometimes, if I'm in the wrong mood. Example: Someone tried to convince me that college is just brainwash the other day, and that it subtly teaches us to throw away our natural wisdom and knowledge and replace it with what the government wants us to know. I lost my temper a bit. I spend hours every day on my school. I day dream about graduating at least twice a week. It's a big deal to me. And to have someone challenge it with such an irrational argument just really bugged me. I was an ass hole about it 😛 but alas we're all human.
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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

Comments: 252 · Posts: 36418 · Topics: 473
Respect their beliefs? Eh..not sure if I can do that. I am a benevolent dictator and I will tolerate different perspectives buy beyond that...nooooo. There is beauty in everything being mocked..shows we are only human and perfection is futile.

I'm not surprised people reacted strongly to you because that aries moon is faux aggression..we are passionate about what we believe in but we never want to push it on others..yet it always comes like that in debates with us. Better get used to it. I used to go to debate challenges and everyone would tell me "dude chill..just chill". I wasn't pissed at all but they were reacting to the vibe.

About college..that person wasn't entirely wrong. You don;t have all the time in the world to learn all perspective so every material caters to one side of that domain..and in doing so if you don't have a curious mind and research by yourself..you will begin to parot ideas that don't even hit home for you. Back in highschool I lucked out with teachers because all of them wanted us to learn by ourselves and discuss everything. Even the unpopular beliefs.

"Be Hard On Your Opinions

A famous bon mot asserts that opinions are like arse-holes, in that everyone has one. There is great wisdom in this??_ but I would add that opinions differ significantly from arse-holes, in that yours should be constantly and thoroughly examined.

We must think critically, and not just about the ideas of others. Be hard on your beliefs. Take them out onto the verandah and beat them with a cricket bat.

Be intellectually rigorous. Identify your biases, your prejudices, your privilege.

Most of society??s arguments are kept alive by a failure to acknowledge nuance. We tend to generate false dichotomies, then try to argue one point using two entirely different sets of assumptions, like two tennis players trying to win a match by hitting beautifully executed shots from either end of separate tennis courts."

Tim Minchin.
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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I've seen that lecture. Thats the one where he's graduating from the university he was attending, so I don't really think he'd agree that college can be be compared to brainwash either, in any way. I don't think college implies learning all perspectives, and I don't think that really supports that guys argument for brainwash in any way. What you are saying is an assumption. An assumption that I must add, rules out the ability to decide what you accept in terms of fact and theory, even if a professor teaches it. And I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree on the respect of peoples beliefs. You can mock people all you want, but you aren't teaching them anything, because either they already are open minded to other possibilities, or they are too stubborn to learn. So really it would be an action that is self serving in nature, so that you can see the beauty in life, and remind yourself perfection is futile. It will do nothing for the other person. If they aren't up for a debate, leave them alone. But thats my opinion. I see your point I suppose. And education is actually helpful in learning new perspectives, you have more access to reliable sources when you are educated enough to know the difference, and have the schools resources at your finger tips.

I don't see how college defers from analyzing ones own opinions critically at all.
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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

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I am not making any assumptions. You reacted strongly to someone telling you college is brainwash. It isn't brainwash but it's not unbiased either. Nothing is. It's good to take everything as relative anyway.

Loved logic and philosophy but we only studied one for each year.

9th grade - logic
10th grade - psychology and philosophy
11th grade - economics
12th grade - psychology.

I forgot a lot 😢
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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

Comments: 252 · Posts: 36418 · Topics: 473
Posted by guah
And also belief does not imply an inevitable perception of perfection. So for all you know, you could be mocking someone for all the wrong reasons. Unless of course you are aware you are doing it for yourself, in which case I present the possibility that there are many other less confrontational ways to remind yourself of that.



Yeah, I will disagree with that.

My post about mocking people for fun was sarcastic.

However I am not responsible for how people choose to react. I'm not into throwing insults and I like debates. But debates are confrontations of ideas. It would be cool for everyone to find a middle ground. There's always a point in a debate where people will clash, but how they manage it speaks volumes.

I seem very adamant with my views but in reality, I don't enforce them on others. I don't get upset.

It's just that not everyone will abide by a "less confrontational ways" handbook. It's the beauty in variety after all. And I like it because no one has to police anyone on how they present an idea. I will just call it moronic if I see it as such and the other party is free to express themselves however they wish.
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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Posted by Damnata
I am not making any assumptions. You reacted strongly to someone telling you college is brainwash. It isn't brainwash but it's not unbiased either. Nothing is. It's good to take everything as relative anyway.

Loved logic and philosophy but we only studied one for each year.

9th grade - logic
10th grade - psychology and philosophy
11th grade - economics
12th grade - psychology.

I forgot a lot 😢



Of course not. College professors are amongst the most bias people I have ever met in my life. Definitely tons of liberal agenda in what they say. As far as knowledge taught though, most is not bias. Math is unbiased, english is unbiased, science itself is unbiased, although there are many different theories that diverge from each other, they are all based off studies that underwent the scientific method, and thus are in constant evaluation by other scientists, leaving no room for bias. Science searches for fact. What material a teacher decides to teach could be a bit bias, but that isn't the only perspective available.

I guess where I'm a bit confused is where you are making the connection between bias and brainwash. One is a prevalent result of human nature that we are all vulnerable to, one is a rash term used to describe someone who is being purposely fooled into believing things.


Perhaps you made the connection because you were confused about why what this man said upset me. It upset me because it implies that I'm a fool for wanting to gain knowledge and pursue a career I'm passionate about. Not because it implies that anything I learn in college could be subject to change, bias or just being flat out wrong. I'm aware of that risk. It certainly exists as a possibility in all concepts, as you implied.
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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But I will add that information from a text book that has been deemed fit for college level classes is far more probable to have accurate unbiased information than resources from the internet, which is where most people get their information these days. Not to say that the internet is all bullshit, but more of it is in comparison to information available through professors and college text books.


If we are incapable of escaping bias and logical fallacies, then the only logical thing to do is search for knowledge in the place where it is less likely to contain them.
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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

Comments: 252 · Posts: 36418 · Topics: 473
Uhm, I am not really confused. I said you reacted strongly to "brainwash" and you obviously did since it made you feel like the person implied you're a fool for wanting to gain knowledge.

I said he/she might have said "brainwash" thinking of the material teachers teach and the bias that happens with everything. Basically what I'm saying is that person wasn't attacking you with that word, he/she could have meant otherwise.

But because it upset you, you didn't think of what else he/she might have implied. You got stuck on the literal term for "brainwash". This is what I was driving at when I said all people hold their views in high esteem and any challenge to that results in an emotional reaction most of the time.

Hell, I don't know this person. Maybe their aim was solely to insult you, maybe they actually believe going to college is a complete brainwash. That falls within their system of beliefs and should have no effect on you. Don't take it personally or react to it if it doesn't apply.

You even describe brainwash to be a "rash" term. It's not any different than any other word someone would use. I think we look at definitions for terms and some "sound" positive or negative so we get carried away with the implications often.

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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

Comments: 252 · Posts: 36418 · Topics: 473
Posted by guah
*run into them

hurr durr I'm really on one today with my bad english 😆



DXP is the last place where you should worry about your english. We're an insane asylum man, you'll see that if you stick around.

Damn this topic was 1 page long when I checked it in the morning and you debated for 10 pages. Keep up the good fight, Aries Moon. Just don't react emotionally to it, don't get riled up.

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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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Posted by Damnata
Uhm, I am not really confused. I said you reacted strongly to "brainwash" and you obviously did since it made you feel like the person implied you're a fool for wanting to gain knowledge.

I said he/she might have said "brainwash" thinking of the material teachers teach and the bias that happens with everything. Basically what I'm saying is that person wasn't attacking you with that word, he/she could have meant otherwise.

But because it upset you, you didn't think of what else he/she might have implied. You got stuck on the literal term for "brainwash". This is what I was driving at when I said all people hold their views in high esteem and any challenge to that results in an emotional reaction most of the time.

Hell, I don't know this person. Maybe their aim was solely to insult you, maybe they actually believe going to college is a complete brainwash. That falls within their system of beliefs and should have no effect on you. Don't take it personally or react to it if it doesn't apply.

You even describe brainwash to be a "rash" term. It's not any different than any other word someone would use. I think we look at definitions for terms and some "sound" positive or negative so we get carried away with the implications often.



It's a rash term in regards to the context. But I do see your point more clearly now! Good point, for sure! 🙂 And I know I shouldn't have reacted the way I have, thats why I used it as an example to point out that I'm not perfect and fall victim to my own foolishness.
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guah
@guah
10 YearsScorpio

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Posted by Damnata
Posted by guah
*run into them

hurr durr I'm really on one today with my bad english 😆



DXP is the last place where you should worry about your english. We're an insane asylum man, you'll see that if you stick around.

Damn this topic was 1 page long when I checked it in the morning and you debated for 10 pages. Keep up the good fight, Aries Moon. Just don't react emotionally to it, don't get riled up.

click to expand




Well the debates mostly over. I do love a good debate though... I might stick around if thats a common theme of this website. But I really wouldn't like debating about astrological signs, just doesn't interest me. I like philosophical debates.
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Damnata
@Damnata
15 Years25,000+ PostsVirgo

Comments: 252 · Posts: 36418 · Topics: 473
Posted by guah
Posted by Damnata
Posted by guah
*run into them

hurr durr I'm really on one today with my bad english 😆



DXP is the last place where you should worry about your english. We're an insane asylum man, you'll see that if you stick around.

Damn this topic was 1 page long when I checked it in the morning and you debated for 10 pages. Keep up the good fight, Aries Moon. Just don't react emotionally to it, don't get riled up.



Well the debates mostly over. I do love a good debate though... I might stick around if thats a common theme of this website. But I really wouldn't like debating about astrological signs, just doesn't interest me. I like philosophical debates.
click to expand




We usually have those on the Miscellaneous board but you should check all boards. Expect people to be blunt a lot..it's the dxp baptism.

Also expect leo moons to be mad envious of you but that goes with the territory and you don't believe in astrology so it's all cool.
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TLS
@TaurusLovesScorpio
12 Years1,000+ Posts

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This thread is now a giant pile of pig slop, but...

Posted by guah

So I must ask, what knowledge of the cosmos would that give you? Our personalities being affected by the cosmos would be knowledge yes, but only if it were scientifically proven, otherwise it wouldn't even be a theory, just a belief of the cosmos. Hypothetically if it WERE proven true, then yes that would be a benefit of it. So you've answered that question, which I appreciate! very interesting perspective.



Firstly, very little in science is ever proven true. "Proof" is a term best left to deductive logic IMO, and most sciences are either inductive or abductive. But there are very serious problems with such statements concerning the nature of knowledge, and requirements for all knowledge to be scientific knowledge. Firstly, this is just false. There is plenty of knowledge that is not scientific knowledge. In fact, you have very little scientific knowledge, and the overwhelming majority of all of your knowledge was not determined based on the scientific method. Secondly, the idea that all valid knowledge must be scientific is *itself* a philosophical position, not a scientific one arrived at via the scientific method, so to even HOLD this position is actually self-refuting. Thirdly, every practice and proposition of "science" is based on a whole host of philosophical assumptions and foundations - the idea that there is an external world, that our sense-perception is reliable, that our cognitive faculties are reliable, the uniformity of nature, etc. Lastly, the most popular criteria for theory adjudication used by scientists - falsifiability, simplicity/elegance, coherence, etc. - are philosophical criteria, devised by philosophers to demarcate what is/isn't properly scientific, and are not a deliverance of the method of science.

Science is a method and a relatively recent one at that, and we had knowledge long before the current method was formulated. If you want to understand the nature of knowledge itself, and how it is acquired and classified, you don't study science as this is not a field *of* science. You study Philosophy, and specifically Epistemology. I suggest, before you fall deeper into a naive Scientism, that you pick up an introductory text on Epistemology. Richard Feldman, Richard Fumerton, Laurence BonJour, Ernest Sosa, and John Greco all have excellent intros.

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TLS
@TaurusLovesScorpio
12 Years1,000+ Posts

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OP - here's an excellent lecture by Wes Cecil, Professor of Philosophy at Peninsula College, on the myth of Scientism; it is historically and philosophically informative, and he's pretty funny:


If you're going to go the route of debate, philosophy, and the structure of scientific knowledge, you really want to expose yourself to these kind of critiques, because you cannot get off the ground with some of the arguments you're making without addressing these presuppositional matters.
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TLS
@TaurusLovesScorpio
12 Years1,000+ Posts

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OP - the best book out defending the validity of Astrology, and theorizing about its mechanisms, is _Cosmos and Psyche_ by philosopher/historian Richard Tarnas. Tarnas is probably the only serious modern academic brave enough to even approach the subject, and he does so with a thorough understanding of the philosophical background to the debate, Jungian thought - specifically archetypes and acausal synchronicity which factor heavily into his account, and the full sweep of the history of the Western world (where he is already a recognized authority) which he analyzes against the backdrop of the planetary transits. This book changed my views on a lot of these issues, and I consider it one of the most important works I've ever read.

Here he is speaking on Jungian synchronicity and its application to Astrology on some metaphysical forum:


If you can hang in there for all three parts, it is very informative. He focuses on the outer planets, mainly squares and oppositions, and how they strongly correlate with broader historical movements.