Vacation Queen
@saggurl88
12 Years25,000+ Posts
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Trying to understand Transgender (Page 5)
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Posted by xiongmaoPosted by stillstillwaterPosted by Ixi
Actually, if you had read the resources provided, respected the good faith responses of those who had bothered to reply to you, you would have noticed it has been said many times the issue isn't preference. No one is mad about that.
I won't give you my "excessive" response...I will provide commentary from a Trans-Woman though who has bothered to address your concerns.
From a Trans-woman:
"Here’s the deal: it is not transphobic to decide that you don’t want to date a specific trans person based on your preferences in personality, hobbies, social beliefs, body type, etc. Consent is really cool, and believe me, no one wants to date you or fuck you, if you don’t want to date or fuck them. Trans people are not trying to force you to date us.
It is, however, deeply transphobic to decide that you never want to date any transgender person ever, and the choice to draw such a line is rooted in ignorance, fear, and disgust of trans people.
The transgender community is a massively diverse group with all kinds of body types, genital configurations, personalities, hobbies, and relationship style s. To categorically exclude all people from that group, who would otherwise align with your sexuality (trans men for a straight woman, trans women for a lesbian woman, etc.) is not only missing out on many potential connections you could have with people who you would otherwise have a wonderful time dating, but also reinforces the oppressive social system that says transgender women aren’t “really” women because they were assigned male at birth, and vice versa for trans men."
Humbly disagree with this trans-woman point of view. It is not transphobic to not want to date/sexualize someone who has had a sex change. Respecting and accepting someone else's decision with what they do to their body is one thing... not wanting to have a sexual relationship with that person is a preference. If people can have simple preferences of body types, hair color, financial expectations I don't know why it would be any type of phobic to not want to have a relationship with a transgender person.
People have the right to dictate what kind of situations/people (shallow or not) they want to allow into their intimate spheres.
I think what they are saying is more like this:Preference
Two cars: same type, one red, one blue
Me thinking: "Red colour is gorgeous. I really really like the red colour, so much more than the blue colour."
I'm going to go after the red car each time.More than just Preference
Two cars: same type, one red, one blue
Me thinking: "I'm never getting the blue car. I must avoid the blue car at all cost. Why on earth do they have the blue car there?"
First case is you proactively choosing the red car every time because you prefer it over the blue car. The second one is more of an instinctive and permanent avoidance, simply because the car is blue.click to expand
Red car, blue car
Red car is a automatic
Blue car is a stick
I don’t like driving sticks. The Dealership paints the red car blue and blue car red. End result “I still don’t like sticks.
And If the dealership is filled with only stick shifts. And I drove several miles to get there then yes “why on earth are there only stick shifts here.
So I avoid that dealership and that red car.
Or do I have to buy a stick shift, force my self to learn how drive one, still dislike it and pretend to be ok with it.
Posted by IxiPosted by AntiphatesPosted by saggurl88Posted by AntiphatesPosted by saggurl88Posted by AntiphatesPosted by IxiPosted by SuperSize9Posted by Prince_PiscesPosted by stillstillwater
Transgender: We have the right to change sex organs and be accepted for our preference.
Straight people: We have the right to not date those who changed their sex organs and be accepted for our preference.
I guess rights do not count if they belong to a streamlined majority.
Transgender people are not trying to force anyone to date them though. You do know it's the idiot straight SJW's doing all of that and trying to speak for them right?
Not force but people are being labeled as transphobic for not being attracted to them. In that way it forces a response.
Actually, if you had read the resources provided, respected the good faith responses of those who had bothered to reply to you, you would have noticed it has been said many times the issue isn't preference. No one is mad about that.
I won't give you my "excessive" response...I will provide commentary from a Trans-Woman though who has bothered to address your concerns.
From a Trans-woman:
"Here’s the deal: it is not transphobic to decide that you don’t want to date a specific trans person based on your preferences in personality, hobbies, social beliefs, body type, etc. Consent is really cool, and believe me, no one wants to date you or fuck you, if you don’t want to date or fuck them. Trans people are not trying to force you to date us.
It is, however, deeply transphobic to decide that you never want to date any transgender person ever, and the choice to draw such a line is rooted in ignorance, fear, and disgust of trans people.
The transgender community is a massively diverse group with all kinds of body types, genital configurations, personalities, hobbies, and relationship style s. To categorically exclude all people from that group, who would otherwise align with your sexuality (trans men for a straight woman, trans women for a lesbian woman, etc.) is not only missing out on many potential connections you could have with people who you would otherwise have a wonderful time dating, but also reinforces the oppressive social system that says transgender women aren’t “really” women because they were assigned male at birth, and vice versa for trans men."
Just to avoid misunderstandings: As long as the decision to not date transgender people isn't a categorical one that person is not and should not be labelled as transphobic.
Thus statements like "At this point in time I don't find myself attracted to transgender people but this might change in the future." are to be respected as non-transphobic and this choice isn't morally reprehensible.
Did I get this correct?
Anything that makes sense, that goes against a certain agenda, doesn't get answered lol Yes you are correct in my eyes. I think we are both in agreement.
I understand why this might look like the solution, and to an end it is one in terms of practicality, but technically the problem persists, as all someone who is transphob, in the sense that he indeed would never date a transgender person, would have to do is to give the correct formal response in order to not be considered transphobic.
That person then is, in a sense, Schroedingers transphob.
I agree, and the key is still to just remain unaggressive with it. As long as someone is going on dates with those of their choosing and people are treat in a moral way, I think things work itself out.
What is the correct formal response?
There are so many grey areas in dealing with this type of thing.
Honesty and choice is the base line for most decisions in life. People want to know what they're dealing with.
Even though people who lie or deceive, win as well.
And usually you can't even tell someone has this type of phobia until they are put into this type of situation, which is all the more reason for honesty to be present.
According to the given definition the formally correct reponse is to not say never whenever you state you would not date x.
I have to think about this, run this through and, at best talk with some people about this, but I think this whole thing simply might be a category mistake. We use "is transphobic" but logically mean "acts transphobic".
I'm not sure if that solves the problem tho.
Moral victories on a subject like this are likely impossible, sadly. At present, the trans-rights movement only has the ability to wage a campaign to neuter the ability of transphobic people to unduly repress (crush) trans-people aka... stopping the harassment, abuse, and brutality that disproportionately affects their number.
Hearts and minds (the culture war on the issue) matter to a degree here, as the ability of society to enact meaningful policy on the issue does require a change in public perception...but ultimately the goal of the bill is to end coercive and abusive influence over trans-people and their bodies and identities. Necessarily, programs to win hearts and minds, convince those in the public who are receptive and warn/inform society, in general, of the risks of continued sustained conflict over these issues of gender/sexuality will have to be run in support of the larger goal of ending trans-repression.click to expand
This sounds biased and full of agenda, just as much as not wanting to date a trans person is.
It’s grouping everyone into one category and pretending that there is a like mindedness and that there needs to be a group thought on the matter.
When people have a right to their own opinions.
Yes I agree, there should be education on the matter but people are who they are. There’s not much that n change that and I’m not sure why it’s expected to be changed. I don’t think it ever will be in a satisfactory manner.
Posted by SuperSize9Posted by xiongmaoPosted by stillstillwaterPosted by Ixi
Actually, if you had read the resources provided, respected the good faith responses of those who had bothered to reply to you, you would have noticed it has been said many times the issue isn't preference. No one is mad about that.
I won't give you my "excessive" response...I will provide commentary from a Trans-Woman though who has bothered to address your concerns.
From a Trans-woman:
"Here’s the deal: it is not transphobic to decide that you don’t want to date a specific trans person based on your preferences in personality, hobbies, social beliefs, body type, etc. Consent is really cool, and believe me, no one wants to date you or fuck you, if you don’t want to date or fuck them. Trans people are not trying to force you to date us.
It is, however, deeply transphobic to decide that you never want to date any transgender person ever, and the choice to draw such a line is rooted in ignorance, fear, and disgust of trans people.
The transgender community is a massively diverse group with all kinds of body types, genital configurations, personalities, hobbies, and relationship style s. To categorically exclude all people from that group, who would otherwise align with your sexuality (trans men for a straight woman, trans women for a lesbian woman, etc.) is not only missing out on many potential connections you could have with people who you would otherwise have a wonderful time dating, but also reinforces the oppressive social system that says transgender women aren’t “really” women because they were assigned male at birth, and vice versa for trans men."
Humbly disagree with this trans-woman point of view. It is not transphobic to not want to date/sexualize someone who has had a sex change. Respecting and accepting someone else's decision with what they do to their body is one thing... not wanting to have a sexual relationship with that person is a preference. If people can have simple preferences of body types, hair color, financial expectations I don't know why it would be any type of phobic to not want to have a relationship with a transgender person.
People have the right to dictate what kind of situations/people (shallow or not) they want to allow into their intimate spheres.
I think what they are saying is more like this:Preference
Two cars: same type, one red, one blue
Me thinking: "Red colour is gorgeous. I really really like the red colour, so much more than the blue colour."
I'm going to go after the red car each time.More than just Preference
Two cars: same type, one red, one blue
Me thinking: "I'm never getting the blue car. I must avoid the blue car at all cost. Why on earth do they have the blue car there?"
First case is you proactively choosing the red car every time because you prefer it over the blue car. The second one is more of an instinctive and permanent avoidance, simply because the car is blue.
Red car, blue car
Red car is a automatic
Blue car is a stick
I don’t like driving sticks. The Dealership paints the red car blue and blue car red. End result “I still don’t like sticks.
And If the dealership is filled with only stick shifts. And I drove several miles to get there then yes “why on earth are there only stick shifts here.
So I avoid that dealership and that red car.
Or do I have to buy a stick shift, force my self to learn how drive one, still dislike it and pretend to be ok with it.click to expand
Touché 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Posted by IxiPosted by saggurl88Posted by IxiPosted by AntiphatesPosted by saggurl88Posted by AntiphatesPosted by saggurl88Posted by AntiphatesPosted by IxiPosted by SuperSize9Posted by Prince_PiscesPosted by stillstillwater
Transgender: We have the right to change sex organs and be accepted for our preference.
Straight people: We have the right to not date those who changed their sex organs and be accepted for our preference.
I guess rights do not count if they belong to a streamlined majority.
Transgender people are not trying to force anyone to date them though. You do know it's the idiot straight SJW's doing all of that and trying to speak for them right?
Not force but people are being labeled as transphobic for not being attracted to them. In that way it forces a response.
Actually, if you had read the resources provided, respected the good faith responses of those who had bothered to reply to you, you would have noticed it has been said many times the issue isn't preference. No one is mad about that.
I won't give you my "excessive" response...I will provide commentary from a Trans-Woman though who has bothered to address your concerns.
From a Trans-woman:
"Here’s the deal: it is not transphobic to decide that you don’t want to date a specific trans person based on your preferences in personality, hobbies, social beliefs, body type, etc. Consent is really cool, and believe me, no one wants to date you or fuck you, if you don’t want to date or fuck them. Trans people are not trying to force you to date us.
It is, however, deeply transphobic to decide that you never want to date any transgender person ever, and the choice to draw such a line is rooted in ignorance, fear, and disgust of trans people.
The transgender community is a massively diverse group with all kinds of body types, genital configurations, personalities, hobbies, and relationship style s. To categorically exclude all people from that group, who would otherwise align with your sexuality (trans men for a straight woman, trans women for a lesbian woman, etc.) is not only missing out on many potential connections you could have with people who you would otherwise have a wonderful time dating, but also reinforces the oppressive social system that says transgender women aren’t “really” women because they were assigned male at birth, and vice versa for trans men."
Just to avoid misunderstandings: As long as the decision to not date transgender people isn't a categorical one that person is not and should not be labelled as transphobic.
Thus statements like "At this point in time I don't find myself attracted to transgender people but this might change in the future." are to be respected as non-transphobic and this choice isn't morally reprehensible.
Did I get this correct?
Anything that makes sense, that goes against a certain agenda, doesn't get answered lol Yes you are correct in my eyes. I think we are both in agreement.
I understand why this might look like the solution, and to an end it is one in terms of practicality, but technically the problem persists, as all someone who is transphob, in the sense that he indeed would never date a transgender person, would have to do is to give the correct formal response in order to not be considered transphobic.
That person then is, in a sense, Schroedingers transphob.
I agree, and the key is still to just remain unaggressive with it. As long as someone is going on dates with those of their choosing and people are treat in a moral way, I think things work itself out.
What is the correct formal response?
There are so many grey areas in dealing with this type of thing.
Honesty and choice is the base line for most decisions in life. People want to know what they're dealing with.
Even though people who lie or deceive, win as well.
And usually you can't even tell someone has this type of phobia until they are put into this type of situation, which is all the more reason for honesty to be present.
According to the given definition the formally correct reponse is to not say never whenever you state you would not date x.
I have to think about this, run this through and, at best talk with some people about this, but I think this whole thing simply might be a category mistake. We use "is transphobic" but logically mean "acts transphobic".
I'm not sure if that solves the problem tho.
Moral victories on a subject like this are likely impossible, sadly. At present, the trans-rights movement only has the ability to wage a campaign to neuter the ability of transphobic people to unduly repress (crush) trans-people aka... stopping the harassment, abuse, and brutality that disproportionately affects their number.
Hearts and minds (the culture war on the issue) matter to a degree here, as the ability of society to enact meaningful policy on the issue does require a change in public perception...but ultimately the goal of the bill is to end coercive and abusive influence over trans-people and their bodies and identities. Necessarily, programs to win hearts and minds, convince those in the public who are receptive and warn/inform society, in general, of the risks of continued sustained conflict over these issues of gender/sexuality will have to be run in support of the larger goal of ending trans-repression.
This sounds biased and full of agenda, just as much as not wanting to date a trans person is.
It’s grouping everyone into one category and pretending that there is a like mindedness and that there needs to be a group thought on the matter.
When people have a right to their own opinions.
Yes I agree, there should be education on the matter but people are who they are. There’s not much that n change that and I’m not sure why it’s expected to be changed. I don’t think it ever will be in a satisfactory manner.
What is the agenda you are referencing? What are the items on it?
And I am not sure where I am losing you, I stated that the movement has no wish to mandate a public perception, they have every intent to prevent widespread abuse by that public, however.click to expand
I think I missed the movement has no wish mandate a public perception part.
I can understand preventative measures. Ok I get it. Thanks
If they're not hurting anybody idgaf, you can...
- cut you penis or add one (even cook it latter and eat it - if that's your thing)
- fill your chest with silicon
- wear an animal costume most of the time (furry be)
- identify with a baby and act like one (even wearing diapers and such)
- fill your drawers with used diapers to sniff
- have sex with your car
- trust blindly in your given doctrine/religion
- nail your nipples or the penis on a wooden plank
- eat poop or drink piss
- get a surgical procedure on your rib-cage to suck ye dick or lick ya pussy (not about Marilyn Manson - in his case those rumor were debunked / other peps did it tho)
...so on and so forth. Just don't try to FORCE others - to put up with your kind of madness - unless they do the same...
- cut you penis or add one (even cook it latter and eat it - if that's your thing)
- fill your chest with silicon
- wear an animal costume most of the time (furry be)
- identify with a baby and act like one (even wearing diapers and such)
- fill your drawers with used diapers to sniff
- have sex with your car
- trust blindly in your given doctrine/religion
- nail your nipples or the penis on a wooden plank
- eat poop or drink piss
- get a surgical procedure on your rib-cage to suck ye dick or lick ya pussy (not about Marilyn Manson - in his case those rumor were debunked / other peps did it tho)
...so on and so forth. Just don't try to FORCE others - to put up with your kind of madness - unless they do the same...
Posted by neves
If they're not hurting anybody idgaf, you can...
- cut you penis or add one (even cook it latter and eat it - if that's your thing)
- fill your chest with silicon
- wear an animal costume most of the time (furry be)
- identify with a baby and act like one (even wearing diapers and such)
- fill your drawers with used diapers to sniff
- have sex with your car
- trust blindly in your given doctrine/religion
- nail your nipples or the penis on a wooden plank
- eat poop or drink piss
- get a surgical procedure on you rib-cage to suck ye dick or lick ya pussy (not about Marilyn Manson - in his case those rumor were debunked / other peps did it tho)
...so on and so forth. Just don't try to FORCE others - to put up with your maddens - unless they do the same...
No.....sick, psychologically unsound people should be treated in an institution that can help cure what ails them.
I don't need to be rubbing elbows with someone that might go "off the rails" in the grocery checkout, because someone said they look strange/weird.
Ok, some insight. I’ve been doing more research on this push of transgender hype into the main spot light. And I’ve discovered it’s not the transgender community saying or doing these things at all.
It’s the activist who many do not know anything about the transgender struggles. It also seems like these activist are using this community of people as new influence to push their own agenda.
To push socialism and liberalism by magnifying a marginalized innocent group of people. Then claiming to be their voice. These other people are are profiting off this wave. At the expense of a community that is looking for equality and acceptance. So many trans people feel embarrassed and miss represented.
So the phrase “ your Transphobic if you don’t date a
Trans women”
Was not coined by trans community. But by activist telling trans individuals “this is how you must think and react”. It’s all a game, to keep us preoccupied. The real motive may go unknown. But give it a few years it will be something new that goes against the grain.
It’s the activist who many do not know anything about the transgender struggles. It also seems like these activist are using this community of people as new influence to push their own agenda.
To push socialism and liberalism by magnifying a marginalized innocent group of people. Then claiming to be their voice. These other people are are profiting off this wave. At the expense of a community that is looking for equality and acceptance. So many trans people feel embarrassed and miss represented.
So the phrase “ your Transphobic if you don’t date a
Trans women”
Was not coined by trans community. But by activist telling trans individuals “this is how you must think and react”. It’s all a game, to keep us preoccupied. The real motive may go unknown. But give it a few years it will be something new that goes against the grain.
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This actually makes a lot of sense to not use the word never.
People don’t get offended by it. Because choice is still available. There’s a sense of hope that a person could change their mind. It’s not an outright offensive definitive action.
Like “Why not? What’s wrong with me?!” And that can go for anyone who uses it towards another human being.
I would have to agree about the use of the word being taken harshly