Virtues of Integrity

Where is the merit in trying to be an honest, fair person in today's society? Why bother? What will it achieve?

A clear conscience? A feeling of self respect? Aren't they pretty noble values?

And what will that gain?

so what MellowDee and Scorp-in-law are essentially saying is that practicing integrity will result in personal benefits only.

feeling good about yourself and all that

Feeling good about yourself because you haven't set out to do bad to others.

And also when you have a firm sense of self respect and like yourself it is a thousands times better than anyone else telling you.

What is the merit in not being honest? Well you'll probably trip yourself up unless you're a psychopath. "Honesty is the best policy"

"Where is the merit in trying to be an honest, fair person in today's society?"

"Nothing. Unfortunately. People will point their fingers at you and laugh.Ditto.Recalls a few moments within the last of weeks 🙂😢

Knowing that you've been fair or done good is kinda a reward in itself isn't it?

brutal honesty - yes defo something sag's are good at!!!

What deeds exactly are you talking about? Do they revolve around money?
Like if you found a handbag on a park bench with 500 dollars or euro in it, would you hand it in or keep it?

I once very stupidly happened to have taken out quite a lot of cash - I think it was 300 euro, and then went and dropped my purse in the park if you don't mind. Now the first noticed that my purse was missing was when I got a call form the bank telling me that my purse had been found and they had traced me through my bank card. I found out that a teenage boy had found my purse and handed it in to the garda station. I was totally thrilled that my cash had not been stolen but I was more amazed and humbled by this young man who had done this really noble deed without a moment's hesitation. I gave him a big box of chocolates for being a great citizen and told his mum she had a fantastic son.

there are very few people that honest these days. you lucked out, MD. But you only gave him chocolates? lol

I think there are more honest people out there than we might think due to people with low integrity being in the spot light and media focus nearly all the time.

Yes HP I gave him chocolates. What would you have suggested? That I reward him with something more generous? I gave him the chocolates as a token to celebrate his very noble deed and because he was a very good boy. I wasn't focusing on the cost or monatary value of the gift itself as the whole point of the giving them to him was not to reward him but celebrate what a fine and upstanding young man he is.

It'll make people like and respect you, which in turn gives you the power to influence them.

What are you saying that in connection to yama?

The original question.

Ah yes I kinda though that after I posted. But I mean people who gave a sound integrity don't live a good life just so they can influence others. That's not their goal.

*gave = have

She asked for the benefits of integrity.
And you are right, most probably don't live a good life so they could influence other people, they do it out of fear and instinct.

"Morality is herd instinct in the individual."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche was a cynical bastard if you ask me.

And I don't see why living a good life is done out of fear either. Fear of what or who? Fear as in guilt?

Well for one, there's fear of being ostracized.
What exactly stops a powerful person from using his powers against those who are weaker than him for personal gain?

This makes me think of the Russian Mathematician I heard of who turned down a million dollar prize for solving a maths problem because he doesn't believe in money!

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2341460

I think that money is having less value for people in developed countries because they have a well sustained and fair infrastructure that allows average income people the freedom to persue most things and activities that they desire.

"What exactly stops a powerful person from using his powers against those who are weaker than him for personal gain?"

Because he'll get the shit kicked out of him by the law courts maybe for corruption? It's actually not worth it for powerful people to try to trample over less powerful people anyway because it's usually for petty egotistical reasons and is more likely to pose problems if scandals arise and people who have been wronged seek vengeance.

Fear, then.

I don't equate it with fear, just good business acumen. A person can still be an unscrupulous MF and yet not break any laws outright.

"I don't equate it with fear, just good business acumen."

They don't do something because there is a possibilty that it'll have negative results, how is that not fear?

Ok then I guess a person might not do something unscrupulous in case it backfires and this is something he doesn't want and so the discomfort that this would cause keeps him on the straight and narrow. Ok then can you point out the fear that persuades a person not to keep a bag with $ 1000 in it on the street? Surely there is not fear that he will get into trouble from the law because he could give endless excuses as to why he didn't hand it in, like stupidity perhaps.

Instinct, the person was raised to be a tool and acts as one without thinking. Either that or said person wants to be liked, and thinks that doing altruitic stuff like that will make people like him. This is a pretty unlikeley scenario, though.

Why is the other option necessarily just cos the person wants to be liked? Isn't there another option that he/she has empathy and can relate to being on the receiving end of someone else's bad turn and is showing compassion for his fellow man even if he never meets this person or knows of him/her in any way. In this way he is not displaying his integrity out of fear or because he is a tool or because he wants to be liked, he is making a conscious decision that he doesn't want to gain from someone else's bad luck and is doing to others as he would have done to him.

Instinct then.

😉😉

I don't think instinct is the same as making a conscious decision although it might come into play when you are weighing things up.

Either one makes a logical decision, and thus-does what is beneficial to him(though not necessarilty directly) or follows dumb instinct.

Well if you mean by a beneficial decision that his actions are in accordance with his principles and integrity then yeah I guess it is. Actually it's interestomg that you should use the word "beneficial" as it comes from the Lain benefici(um) meaning kindness.

*interestomp = interesting

How did I make that typo? Ok I know

*Lain = Latin

when ur honest and fair, people trust ya and count on ya and thats waaay important when u've got ur own business.....nothing is more important to me than being trusted

Yama will interpret that as being a selfish reason for having a high integrity I should imagine!

Making such conjectures about people is neither polite nor wise.
And I really don't see selfishness as other people do.

"And I really don't see selfishness as other people do"

Ah so? But you can't assume that it will be widely understood unless you're so polite as to see the rose spectacled view you have of selfishness as a, well, virtue! 😛

veddy veddy intwesting

md-Where did you get that idea?

how do you view selfishness?

A predatory behaviour that entails hurting others to improve one's situation.
I'm neutral towards it.

"I'm neutral towards it."

Even when someone else's selfishness gets in the way of yours? 😛

"md-Where did you get that idea?"

Listen Yama I am a recent convert to Discordianism whereby one of the codes by which I am to live states that Everything I think is right.

A Corrolory of this is that all assumptions and conjectures I reach, however questionable the logic, are also deemed right.

Does that answer your question yama?

Then I'd be opposing the person, not the agenda, a person can get in my way for the most selfless goals and I'd oppose them.

"Does that answer your question yama?"

No, not at all.

I am pleased you've seen the light, though.

how could someone get in your way being selfless?