What is your opinion? (The Trilogy) (Page 25)

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CuriousLuv1
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Posted by Libra911
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Hello Leebs and Non Leebs!! Just dropping by for a bit. How is everyone?



LUVVV!! 😄 hey hon, how is going—



911 What's up?? Going well thank you, how about you—



I am good, living the life 🙂 how is NY, love, health, fun? spill the beans 🙂
click to expand




Ha ha ha ha Well definitely having fun. Looking to plan a trip soon not sure where yet. NY/NJ is great. Health is OK I can do better with my eating habits and water intake, but I am healthy. 🙂 Love....hmmmm Still figuring that out. HA HA HA HA What about you Missy. Were are you this week? he he he
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Posted by Libra911
On a side note, I gotta give credit to Federer for being modest and has a head on his shoulders when it comes to women. Someone in his position would most likely be with a modelish type of a woman (like most)but he chose below average gal. I respect that



Below average? He simply chooses down-to-earth women, in my opinion there are more and more gentlemen be it within the entertainment industry or otherwise, whom are gearing more towards finding a 'normal' individual, to balance out their insanity upon their other life with his other mistress - Success. Look at the number of late bachelors, waiting it out, astounding numbers...my observations of course.
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Hello Leebs and Non Leebs!! Just dropping by for a bit. How is everyone?



LUVVV!! 😄 hey hon, how is going—



911 What's up?? Going well thank you, how about you—



I am good, living the life 🙂 how is NY, love, health, fun? spill the beans 🙂



Ha ha ha ha Well definitely having fun. Looking to plan a trip soon not sure where yet. NY/NJ is great. Health is OK I can do better with my eating habits and water intake, but I am healthy. 🙂 Love....hmmmm Still figuring that out. HA HA HA HA What about you Missy. Were are you this week? he he he



lol@water intake. I am always criticized for not drinking enough water so I understand 🙂. What is happening with love? Is it complicated? 😛
A friend is coming in 10 days for 2 weeks and I am planning where to go, what to do. There are so many places but not as much time :/ I am a plan freak so I am making a very detailed word document with activities 😄
Any specific plans where to go for vacation? what about Europe? London or Paris are very close to u 😉
click to expand




New York itself already has so much to explore, an abundant source of activities to occupy oneself with.
My vote- New York, New York
911, was it you who recommended - Roasting Celebrities with Seth?...they were hilarious!
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Posted by tiziani
I respect the guys that go after the model. Screw what society thinks. As long as they go after what makes them happy. Federer and his wife included. Maybe he's with her simply because he loves her. What more reason does anyone need really.



No one is saying otherwise tiz, but it is also going against society's grain by going for a 'normal' individual, either way what ever makes the individual happy is what is best.
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Posted by Libra911
Yes LS - hahahahah, I am glad u had a good laugh, which roasted celebrity was your fav? 🙂



Only caught a few clips thus far but will search them out at a later time. They are entirely politically incorrect, you could see the audience getting shifty in their seats but the few who understood his brand of humour were literally rolling in fits!
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How and which ever way one looks at it society will judge, be it a man who goes for a model or one who goes for girl-next-door type. That is a fact. If they pursue a model, he is made out as a narcissist, if they pursue a girl-next-door type, they are perceived as a submissive doormat and the woman a gold digger. There will be discrimination in all cases.

A man going after model does not necessarily mean he will treat her well, god knows how many men that do not. Down-to-earth does not equate to being one who is boring, there are individuals and yes men included, who prefer to stay in, a quiet home life, who is to say otherwise? It does not have to be deep, merely a difference in preferences, some prefer mental fulfillment others seek emotional depth, it is what it is.

Nice men does not equate to good men but not all nice men are fake, that niceness could stem from a variety of reasons, falseness is only but one.

Women who are better looking, who is the judge now? What may be good looking to one man might be but hideous to another, how could a certain type of physical look attribute to ones sense of humour? They are not mutually inclusive, in fact the ugly ducklings themselves suffer from just as much superficially judgements, of a different manner. A sense of humour does not equate to a defense mechanism nor shield, any woman frankly can laugh, laughter is merely learning to let lose and be happy, even if for a while. Anyone regardless of physically attributes could attain so, for this is a personality trait which is develop within and not on the surface.
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Posted by Libra911
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Hello Leebs and Non Leebs!! Just dropping by for a bit. How is everyone?



LUVVV!! 😄 hey hon, how is going—



911 What's up?? Going well thank you, how about you—



I am good, living the life 🙂 how is NY, love, health, fun? spill the beans 🙂



Ha ha ha ha Well definitely having fun. Looking to plan a trip soon not sure where yet. NY/NJ is great. Health is OK I can do better with my eating habits and water intake, but I am healthy. 🙂 Love....hmmmm Still figuring that out. HA HA HA HA What about you Missy. Were are you this week? he he he



lol@water intake. I am always criticized for not drinking enough water so I understand 🙂. What is happening with love? Is it complicated? 😛
A friend is coming in 10 days for 2 weeks and I am planning where to go, what to do. There are so many places but not as much time :/ I am a plan freak so I am making a very detailed word document with activities 😄
Any specific plans where to go for vacation? what about Europe? London or Paris are very close to u 😉
click to expand




LMAO! I swear in your writing right now you sound like you are on 10. LMAO Right now I want a beach and turquoise waters. he he he. London would be cool. I have to make a list and see in what order I want to go to these places. LOL The love life I still have an interest for my Libra, but we have both been busy and I am just not sure where he is. Not really interested in anyone else at this point, but we have built a great friendship so I try to leave the focus there.
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Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by Libra911
Posted by CuriousLuv1
Posted by Libra911
Posted by CuriousLuv1
Posted by Libra911
Posted by CuriousLuv1
Hello Leebs and Non Leebs!! Just dropping by for a bit. How is everyone?



LUVVV!! 😄 hey hon, how is going—



911 What's up?? Going well thank you, how about you—



I am good, living the life 🙂 how is NY, love, health, fun? spill the beans 🙂



Ha ha ha ha Well definitely having fun. Looking to plan a trip soon not sure where yet. NY/NJ is great. Health is OK I can do better with my eating habits and water intake, but I am healthy. 🙂 Love....hmmmm Still figuring that out. HA HA HA HA What about you Missy. Were are you this week? he he he



lol@water intake. I am always criticized for not drinking enough water so I understand 🙂. What is happening with love? Is it complicated? 😛
A friend is coming in 10 days for 2 weeks and I am planning where to go, what to do. There are so many places but not as much time :/ I am a plan freak so I am making a very detailed word document with activities 😄
Any specific plans where to go for vacation? what about Europe? London or Paris are very close to u 😉



New York itself already has so much to explore, an abundant source of activities to occupy oneself with.
My vote- New York, New York
911, was it you who recommended - Roasting Celebrities with Seth?...they were hilarious!
click to expand




Very true TLS. The summer is harder to get away from NYC, but as the cold starts to come back I like to be on my way some where. 🙂
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For dear Feby 🙂

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Posted by tiziani
There is a particular brand of narcissism that the society I live in will ascribe to. This is to say that if you aspire to be a person who is considered deep, spiritual, non-judgemental, open-minded, humble, sensitive, charitable and sacrifice... then you must automatically be considered in a good place and a good person.


Rarely is this ever of any substance, in my experience. And I'm purely talking about my experience. No more and no less than that. Not saying it's true for everyone else's world. Just what I've observed.

I like to judge and I firmly believe that is what is on the inside is reflected on the outside, through and through.



No, this is simply a case of the public and private self. A good person is only as defined as the people who they surround themselves with, everyone's definition of good varies, the same goes for substance.

Last I fully agreed to as for the rest, to each their own.
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
😄
I mean, everyone is jugdemental and sensitive to a certain extent, the rest are kinda made up or 'fake it 'til you make it' for the most part.



+ 1

Swim in constant fluidity, a spectrum not defined ends.


What?:-? 🙂
Errmmm... Words like clay, Modelled to perfection, I fucking howled when Tiz said 'spack' the other day!
click to expand




There are days when I completely understand you Sir Bling and then there are days like this when I absolutely do not...
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Posted by feby16aqua
You know Lady Scorp, it was difficult for me to let the man lead. I learned that in a few very important circumstances it is good to let the man lead 🙂



Yes, it is very important to let the man lead and to trust he is good enough to know exactly how to move your body. That hand to hand connection, should be a link of strength, pure fluid communication without words, with a twist of a hip, a shift in the shoulders he should be able to guide you with his every small body movement. When one begins to fight this, then then literally you would both be stopping each others movements, slowing down the momentum gathered. One should have faith in his leading whilst allowing you to still remain independent enough to stylize your own expression. It is a matter of practice and time, stop fighting him, let him move you 😉
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Posted by Mr. Defense
Here is the low down on "beautiful" women vs homely women. from my experience, really beautiful women tend to develop a lower self esteem. And this is mainly because when they do find a guy they feel has the guts to step up to them, they basically hold on for dear life to this guy. Case in point, Halley Barry. She went through at least 2 very destructive marriages in her life, and many believed she was one of the most beautiful women in film. Really when a woman is beautiful, she hears it all. Other women are catty with her, guys are either intimidated by them, weak to them, or totally dominate them. I've met ton of beautiful women who have very low self esteems.

This is not to say all of them do, but from my experience, they are very insecure. I've also seen women who are not "all that great" become totally divas. I mean no matter what a guy will come on here and tell you, we've all put our dicks in a woman less than desirable. Not every guy out there getting laid has a bunch of top models in his bed every night. Instead, he's just boinking average or below average women. Because he's generally trying to get the easy lay, and a lot of guys see more "homely" women as easy lays.

What happens when women have these guys go after them? The ego goes up. I've seen fat women with the most humongous egos. That's because guys wanting easy sex hit them up all the time. It's the ugly chicks who will get hit on more, because guys think they're easy game.



Yes, agreed to.
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The posts were well written Mr.D, though where in regards do intelligence and personality, do they factor within such a range as it were. Frankly, all that has been shared thus far is based upon ones physical attributes. Are you suggesting a woman who is stunningly beautiful, with incredible intelligence and a great personality to boost, as one who is practically hopeless in landing herself a man, as in all these positive traits to be found within her, renders her as out-of-field and out-of-bounds, alienated?
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My mind blanked-out, I meant great sense of humour...not thinking straight as of late, do excuse the error filled posts.

No, very true at the end of the day as much as we would hate to admit it. We all 'settle' for a lack of a better word, all this love- dovey fuss is romantic and entirely sentimental but in reality, very few truly experience it.

What would essentially work in a marriage would far contrast what one would seek out in a long-term relationship, the world of dating is merely one rid with drama, heartaches and unnecessary stress, where as marriage is based upon compromise and working with what one has got, comfortably, a quiet acceptance. Marriage with that one great 'love', that nearly impossible pedestal many envision and possibly idealize, those marriages in fact may not pull through in the long run than one that is just mediocre, better had "warm than scalded" mentality. A Wife and a girl-friend are two drastically different list of criterias.

Now, these are my observations thus far, at the end of the day I am not a man but a woman, who could simply attempt to understand your kind.
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Posted by tiziani
Although I would just say I believe a relationships has three parts to it, never just two. So I disagree that the work/settle aspect is that black and white. You can still settle for the comfort of what another person brings to your life, and yet your relationship takes work.



In was my mess of linking two subjects together incoherently, work/settle aspect and the points in which was brought up was purely in regards to marriage, not relationships. Relationships are a different creature entirely, the dating scene is a merry-go round of individuals attempting to find and seek 'love' when more often than not it is a hit-n-run on replay.

When one settles, it was in regards to one being comfortable in regards to every aspect of life together, sometimes striving for such a high pedestal or even ideal is nothing but unnecessary stress on oneself, perhaps simply finding another individual that is 'good enough' rather than 'great' might be the answer?
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Posted by Libra911
"Knew a Sag years ago, who didn't respect anyone in the world, but always loved to preach about how "great" her personality is."

And this is what I meant by people being delusional about who they really are 🙂



+ 1

Simply be as good of a person as one can be, strive for personal fulfillment and enlightenment as for the rest, screw it. There will be those who judge you, claiming you as a detrimental being, then there exists those few whom will lift you, claiming you are what is best. One simply can not please all whom they may come in contact with, one does not need to please the entire world to gain satisfaction, only to make oneself happy, happy enough, one could only hope this ray of shining light is but enough to draw people in, if they are attracted, the magnetic pull would bring them into your closer circles, the ones that are repulsed by it would merely stay away. Fact of life. We are only as much as who we are to ourselves, the rest is based upon perception and judgements.
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If one were to flip it, a boyfriend and a husband are vastly different in my eyes.

No, I was not talking on the cognitive level.

Once upon a time, my thinking was exactly as the one in which you proposed until it came upon my realizing, an chemistry that may be once in a lifetime, a connection that may be unmatched, even an emotional depth and sensitivity that may very well assimilate together, all these may be great, even incredible but there are some chinks within an armour which can not be mended, no matter the amount of work one would put in. Two people could only build so much, before they reach certain limits, a match of minds and hearts may not be enough, as much as one would like to believe love to be all powerful, overruling all harshness and reality of life, it simply is not so.

By 'settling' one is not necessarily restricting, but it is a choice though, a choice in a certain life- style , and marriage is that singular choice. It is a focus upon, joining two individual lives together, merging in certain aspects, finances, living/location, career, children, in-laws, and so forth, one can not be 'free' in marriage, there is merely too much responsibility to the extent that it nearly becomes a duty to put forth ones weight, it is a continual project.

What you seek, is personal growth through another individual, frankly in my honest opinion that is where the realm of relationships occur, it is a cyclical process, which allows one growth but not a definitive pathway along together, forever, because it does not possess all the tools for it to do so, simply two people coming together to make and bring out the best of another, food for the soul but hardly the life blood in creation.
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Posted by Mr. Defense
Posted by Libra911
"Knew a Sag years ago, who didn't respect anyone in the world, but always loved to preach about how "great" her personality is."

And this is what I meant by people being delusional about who they really are 🙂




no it's just meant for survival. how many people do you think think to themselves internally and say "wow, I'm such a shitty and vile person". Probably very few. The reason why no one ever say this is because they always "resolve" who they are internally. When most people "resolve" who they are, they always resolve themselves as a decent person. Really the bottomline is that it's very uncomfortable to smell your own shit. It's not easy to look into the depth of the bad things you do. We are always willing to pardon bad actions with "circumstances" that lead to "actions". And just because something was intended to "harm anyone" we're fine with that most of the time. The Sag internally probably thought she was a great person, and every bad thing she did was "circumstantial".

Most people resolve this with "out of sight, out of mind" method. fucking over people, and never seeing them again is synonymous with it "never happening". That is because we don't personally see the consequences of our actions because we deliberately flee the situation so we don't have to witness the fallout of our actions. My father was notorious for this. Always fucking things up, and fleeing. But of course I think karma "catches" things up to us. And we have to sit back and lay in our own shit. And make sure we are conscientious about never creating more messes. In life, that's far easier said than done.
click to expand




Great post indeed.
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Not 'through' but 'with', as in to come from the experience having at least learned a lesson or two be it positive or negative.

One must agree with freedom, duty and responsibility co-joining as one and the same, mutually existing but that is in regards to the self, once other individuals come upon our life and we move beyond the realm of 'Me, Myself and I' into 'You, I and Us' and finally upon 'They, you and I'.

There is so much more than that, that singular rule must be pliable, for our lives will no longer merely be our own once touched and interlinked with so many others, as much as one would like to think we are only responsible for ourselves and leave it at that. How true is this? We do not exist in a one (wo)man world, but one filled with 6 billion others, now we may not need to account for every single person alive but there are enough within ones close circle to matter, to matter enough to regard our responsibility and duty, to know our place in their lives as much as ours, the connection and resulting impact. Yes, self-awareness and a self-enlightenment journey is important but the world is not only about one self, there are continent upon it, hemispheres, instead of seeing oneself as the core and the universe revolving around us why not see oneself as a player within this universe, one a part of a great bigger team, which works together as one, a contributing member.


Complete failure at expressing myself as of late *digs a hole to sink my head into*
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Posted by tiziani
I think I see what you're saying, TLS, yes. Putting up with another person's shit and their less desirable aspects is a separate challenging. And sacrificing yourself and what you think is right for you, for duty and what's right for the team is not something I'm inclined towards. But I still don't see much opposition between the two. Maybe in the heat of the moment I would. Given enough time, it's different with perspective.



Not my point at all...

But then again there is a complete traffic jam in my head which is road blocking my thoughts and words as they spew forth, speed bumps and hiccups galore. It may very well be my inability to write today or we are simply on two different wave-lengths and planes, a disproportionate disconnect, that is all.

Ay, case closed or I shall stuff an entire cake in my mouth to shut it.
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Grey, I corrected my choice of words earlier not 'through' I meant 'with' and corrected what I actually meant, my expression is rut stuck, my mind kaput...bear with me.

I have addressed my point of view in regards to a clarification on how I personally see freedom, responsibility and duty, they agreed with yours to an extent but moves beyond it.


(Please refer to the near bottom of the previous page)

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Also Grey my post were in referral to what tiz wrote earlier (did not have the word count space to quote it) and not my thoughts alone. Personally in my honest opinion I do not seek to find myself in others in my relationships, that is simply not done and unhealthy, though through the relationship I would probably take away a lesson or two because sometimes as an individual we can not see beyond ourselves and it is rightly so to assume upon how others may perceive who we are as well, to look beyond a two dimensional prism, towards a possible fourth plane.
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Posted by Mr. Defense
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by Libra911
D is actually refreshingly REAL and that's why no matter how douche-y he can be, I ll always respect his intelligent mind, and humor 🙂...



+ 1

When he is not being too anally Virgo, this realness is admirable, very intelligent, sound of mind, and clear crispness in expression and thought.




My thought process is a very simple one. I'm a Virgo, my mind is a simple mind. The bottomline is that when you are in a relationship, you have to show the other person who you are. But overall, we often don't know ourselves. but how do we lose sight or focus of who we are? Because we try to fine tune our image, and try to be "seen" in a certain light by others. Most people are not representing who they are, but what rather what they want to be. So whats wrong with representing yourself for who you "want to be"? well, nothing, but the thing is you take away the human element, which is a big part of how you are defined. This is how people relate to you, your own vulnerabilities, and imperfection. Honestly, when you represent yourself as who you "wish to be", you don't put forth your limitations. And sometimes those limitations are ugly in the eyes of another, who probably bought into the image you marketed to them when you got together.

The old saying goes "you have to love yourself before anyone can". Well that's true. It's easier to say that, than to do it. Learning to love yourself is a long long journey. And a lot of us can't come to terms with who we are, always lying even to ourselves about what we stand for. So we have to first tackle why we lie to ourselves, or why it's uncomfortable for us to see the "raw us". Because to first love yourself you have to like yourself. But to like yourself you first have to get comfortable with yourself. And to get comfortable, you have to first accept who you are.

At least that's my opinion
click to expand




Precisely my opinion as well, I share the exact same thoughts in regards to this process.

The saying was similar to one in which I personally expressed earlier, if one can not love themselves, how does one expect another to love you, very simple of fact.
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Posted by Libra911
Posted by Mr. Defense
Here is the low down on "beautiful" women vs homely women. from my experience, really beautiful women tend to develop a lower self esteem. And this is mainly because when they do find a guy they feel has the guts to step up to them, they basically hold on for dear life to this guy. Case in point, Halley Barry. She went through at least 2 very destructive marriages in her life, and many believed she was one of the most beautiful women in film. Really when a woman is beautiful, she hears it all. Other women are catty with her, guys are either intimidated by them, weak to them, or totally dominate them. I've met ton of beautiful women who have very low self esteems.

This is not to say all of them do, but from my experience, they are very insecure. I've also seen women who are not "all that great" become totally divas. I mean no matter what a guy will come on here and tell you, we've all put our dicks in a woman less than desirable. Not every guy out there getting laid has a bunch of top models in his bed every night. Instead, he's just boinking average or below average women. Because he's generally trying to get the easy lay, and a lot of guys see more "homely" women as easy lays.

What happens when women have these guys go after them? The ego goes up. I've seen fat women with the most humongous egos. That's because guys wanting easy sex hit them up all the time. It's the ugly chicks who will get hit on more, because guys think they're easy game.



Well said 🙂
click to expand




He forgot the part where the beautiful women are treated like objects. That takes a lot of out of their self esteem. It's not about who they are, but what they are to guys.
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Marketing is generally a very well construed lie which works upon human weaker psychological flaws, it abuses this knowledge, advertisement campaigns re-wires our thinking, in a sub-surface level, nearly painless manipulation which is often undetected to the unsuspecting individual. Once masses fall upon such marketing, what ever service or goods marketed becomes but a near cult or trend, mass hysteria.
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Posted by feby16aqua
Looks and money don't mean much to me. And I'm not your ex lol. I always seem to remind guys of their long lost love or the one who broke their heart.



Ay, that is just as bad as one having to suffer through an experience of having oneself compared and judged against a memory of a woman in their past, nearly an idealistic battle one could never win.
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Posted by tiziani
Is this more what you were talking about, TLS?

https://www.dxpnet.com/opinion/scorpio/a-scorpio-man-s-view-on-marriage-4057196/



Similarly Yes.

Is there room for exceptions, of course, but as put forth yet again, marriage and relationships are two very different beasts altogether. Frankly, at this moment in my life even if though I may have acquired my own understandings of the self, I am far too busy on my own journey, on my own schedule of ambitions to complete to even contemplate marriage even if the man of my life, the love of my life were to appear before me, heartbreaking, one would refuse.

Based upon what reasons? That I would not be able to fulfill what would be required in a successful marriage, that is how aware I am of myself, for a specific make-up and tools are required, it does require compromise, it does require sacrifice, it does require a certainly level of aware of others, a type of selflessness that is not doormat behavior. If one could not provide so, one would be but failing the man, the marriage, our children (should we have any), our respective families and everything that would be interlinked with our union.

Frankly, we live in a very selfish society which promotes Narcisstic behaviour day in and day out, would one say one is above all this and self-righteous. Very well not, it is a temptation which one succumbs to time and again, the temptation of being self-absorbed, we all do, a certain few may fall into a deeper pit and become Narcissistic all round but that is a different topic entirely.
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The Lady Scorpio
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Posted by feby16aqua
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by feby16aqua
Looks and money don't mean much to me. And I'm not your ex lol. I always seem to remind guys of their long lost love or the one who broke their heart.



Ay, that is just as bad as one having to suffer through an experience of having oneself compared and judged against a memory of a woman in their past, nearly an idealistic battle one could never win.



Yes its like fighting ghosts...
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Correction: It is fighting ghosts.

One ends up feeling like a third wheel, with the ghost as the main star within the show.
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Posted by Mr. Defense
I don't always agree with we don't need people. Or we don't need people to make us happy. The bottomline, that sounds great on paper, but we do need people to make us happy. Trust me, I spend majority of my time alone, I know everything about inner strength, inner happiness, and all other things that or preached. But I'd be lying to myself if I said that my life wouldn't be fuller, happier, or even more interesting if I had a life to share with people. Our happiness does come from others. The real problem is when we DEPEND on others for happiness. I can admit other people in my life can bring me happiness, but I don't DEPEND soley on others for happiness. I know within me, I can find my own inner happiness, but it's nice to have that with others too. If we could figure out to be at peace all alone, then why would we need other people. Other people bring perspective, a different point of view, and more substance to us as an individual. So I don't always agree that we don't need others. It would be a pretty boring world if people didn't get to know each other, or if they didn't need each other. I need my co-workers at my job to succeed, CEOs at companies need workers, and parents need each other to succed at raising kids. So we DO need each other. Not to sound like a total socialist (because I'm not). But just trying to be real here



Yes!

We may be born alone and die alone but during our time here on this universe we are surrounded by 6 billion others, get used to it, you do not live alone on planet Mars, one will have to work and interact with others, knowing how we impact and interlink upon individuals that are close to us is key to function at all.
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Posted by tiziani
Posted by Grey
marketing is simply a way to convince you to buy a good or service. people usually try to make economical choices but human beings are not always rational and many of them have desires and marketing tries to use this to attract them. marketing may exploit but at times it can also deliver a powerful message to move audiences and create wonderful memories or even express something they consider personal or emotional about their product.

competitors must find ways to differentiate themselves on more than just price and marketing can help a company express it values and beliefs in a compelling way. everything has a good and bad to it.

marketing can be used effectively and cleverly to make a mom and pop shop grow that can save their buisness. it is all about perception and maketing can be used for good or bad.




lol @ you marketing for marketing right now. But I agree. Just because a certain industry has a mass mentality, it doesn't mean you can't go in and be the top 1% that thinks and works independently to change it.
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Grey, I can not believe you simply marketed marketing, marketing is simply what it is, one could slap a better cover on it but fundamentally it is as expressed. Yes, individual desire is often achieved, my definition of marketing does not judge it as good or bad, it is what it is, why shy away from such a fact?