Why Men Love Bitches!! (Page 5)

Nic

Basically you object to my use of the word victim. So .... substitue product. My point is still very valid. I prefer the word victim in this context because it can mean "a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency."

But what I am talking about is Social Theory. I am NOT talking about the individual's personal turmoil but how people (all people) are conditioned and controlled by social norms and the societies they exist in. You cannot escape the impact or influence of society on the individual. It is completely impossible unless you lived your entire life in isolation.

People are pack animals. Ever been to an old school punk concert full of non-conformists? What do you notice? Everyone looks the same. They follow the rules of the punk non-conformist society.

If you don't like my choice of the word victim ... substitute product. Everyone is the product of social conditioning. It has nothing to do with what the individual suffers through the course of their life.

If you want to know more, start by researching social theory.

I actually agree with your take on self-made victimhood. I agree people choose to lock into their own pain, and use past injustice to justify poor present choices, but what I am talking about is very different. I do believe we are all products (if you prefer) of the terms of our society. (I was using the word victim because it is forced on you and completely inescapable. Your own inner drive makes you conform to your society.)

* It is completely impossible unless you lived your entire life in isolation.

Even feral children raised by other animals will conform to the social behaviour of the animal it is adopted by.

But if you want to see my point in relation to gender, research the sociology of gender. Gender is different than sex because there are social and cultural structures around gender which again you are the product of.

I assume by Nic you mean me?

Very few isolated societies now exist. It is actually a very common misconception that a patriarch social model is found in all societies. It is not. As a result, the gender roles are different.

Evolutionary Psychology/Sociobiology refutes this but if you actually study both gender theory and evolutionary psychology claims, it is very obvious that evolutionary psychology is just a set of unproven hypothesis that you can run trucks through.

In order for evolutionary psychology to really exist, their hypothesis MUST be universal. Even they admit they are not.

I jump ON to bridges. . .

BTW Nic, I do know what you are saying. You are saying that we can rise above what we are programmed to do. To complicate this further, I both agree and disagree with you.

Gender is just as much socialization as it is biology.

Our gender/gender role is the base of social identification. You are seen as a man. I am seen as a woman. By that very fact, the socialization of gender comes into play and a list of social expectations that neither of us are even consciously aware of come into play. *IF* I am aware of at least some of my social conditioning, I can over come it, as can you. BUT because these drives are programed from birth and exist at the deepest level of self, we cannot change all of them and feel a pull, a drive, towards them. (Oddly, and just to go full circle, books like Why Men Love Bitches, actually help by making women aware of their underlying tendencies so they CAN change them. Which was my whole point and why I got into socialization to begin with. But my point got missed.)

As society changes and redefine these roles, our mindset towards the sexes and what it is to be man or woman will change. Which is happening!

Of course, if we really wanted to discuss this we would have to break down the gender roles and since some of it is completely unconcious modes of behaviour, I do not believe it is possible. I also think, at this point, it is completely pointless to do so.

Merc

If we are battling, I am completely unaware. I sincerly have no idea what your point is and why you are pissed off. What you are upset about?

What do you believe to be human nature?

There is no winner or loser in this. It is just intellectual debate.

lol!

okey dokey.

* Gender role is a unconcious socialized drive we are all victim too.
* For women, it is often a more submissive, care-giving role.
* Books like this are important because they make women aware of their inner gender driven tendencies, give them the tools to overcome these drives, and thus have more fufilling lives.

Thanks for the very intelligent insightful post Merc. @@

LS I think he is getting frustrated because you are making normal and natural realities into over-sensationalized self flagellation excersize.

I completely understand what your saying. Your focusing on the wrong things for the answers your looking for out of life. Your looking at society and groups and demographics for your answers about why we are the way they are. All your going to get out of that with any depth is why other people are the way they are.

Were not victims of anything, as individuals or together. We are EXPOSED to many things, weather or not you want to be a victim to it is up to you but if you do choose to be just realize your only a victim because you wanted to be, and as you sit around here and preach about it your going to get a lot of eyes rolling as you do because we all hit the same crossroads and choosing the victim part is the easy way out most didn't choose.

Conformity isn't victimization if it helps one survive.

LS,

I want to clarify something.

Are you saying that Conditioning is:

GOOD?

BAD?

NEITHER?

Just for the record I am saying neither, the good or bad comes from the individual, kind of like the good old gun control arguments.

Guns are objects. They are incapable of doing anything on their own, when they are used for good, they are still objects, when they are used for evil, they are still objects. The gun is neither the fundamental problem or solution, simply the tool used by the person who commits the act of good, or evil. If they are declared as being "evil or bad" then the blame is being displaced onto an object and in doing so the understanding, freedoms, accountability and responsibility of the individuals whom agree are greatly reduced.

Do you have ANY idea how insulting that post is?

I don't think you do.

"Do you have ANY idea how insulting that post is?"

LOL!!! Hahahahahaha! Pot, meet kettle...

^^^^ are you talking to me?

"LS I think he is getting frustrated because you are making normal and natural realities into over-sensationalized self flagellation excersize."

This is the only part of either post I can see being taken as insulting....if it was I am sorry, but it is true. I don't mean to insult you but damn if I wasn't being blindsided by pointed, condescending, insulting banter because you couldn't produce a clear and concise rational argument up until the point you calmed down.

I am just trying to illustrate the differences in our thinking. Yours being one of victim hood and mine being one of choice. The problem is were likely going to have to eventually agree to disagree, as we are operating from different first principles. Yours that we are products of our environment, mine that we are products of our own divining in many ways influenced, but essentially in no way controlled in the way you use the word by said environment.

"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains." - Jean Jacques Rousseau: The Social Contract.

I have gone to great lengths to explain various schools of thought. I have put a great deal of time into explaining sociology and social theory to you. To be insulted, for actually having read the great minds and for having studied various schools of thought including sociology which is a very real discipline because ?All your going to get out of that with any depth is why other people are the way they are" and trying to share those theories with those who have not, is just mind-blowing.

To be told that I have been partaking in an over-sensationalized self flagellation exercise is beyond insulting AND quite laughable as I am a very far cry from the tortured soul you are trying to paint me to be.

I have been explaining very real schools of thought. These theories are very easy to find and easy to read. This has not been about me and my search for answers. This has been about getting people to question the reality of what they so easily accept. To use their social imagination and just think about things differently.

The one person on these boards who has NEVER played the victim is me. But thank-you for completely misunderstanding, misrepresenting, and thus insulting who I am and what I stand for. Well done!

"Independence is the recognition of the fact that yours is the responsibility of judgment and nothing can help you escape it." Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged

BTW,

"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains." - Jean Jacques Rousseau: The Social Contract.

The Social Contract, and thus this quote, actually contradict your principles supporting gaining independence by overcoming society's ways and egoism...

* Your focusing on the wrong things for the answers your looking for out of life. Your looking at society and groups and demographics for your answers

I guess the fact that I was TRYING to explain this book in a SOCIAL context was missed on you. You also missed why I said books like this were important. You continue to argue nothing.

For fucksakes.

Go back and read my three points that clarified why I thought books like this were important.

Because you OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T!

AND THOSE were my three arguements FROM the BEGINING.

"This has been about getting people to question the reality of what they so easily accept. To use their social imagination and just think about things differently."

"They" do, your not special, this is what your failing to realize. Some on this board may have done this to the point of being *gasp* in better understanding of the very things your are trying to point out, and are having to revert there way of thinking in order to argue you. We heard the statement, then we heard the why from you, and we are still arguing with you not because "we don't get it" but rather because we do, were the ones trying to help you out a bit.

"To be insulted, for actually having read the great minds and for having studied various schools of thought including sociology which is a very real discipline because ?All your going to get out of that with any depth is why other people are the way they are" and trying to share those theories with those who have not, is just mind-blowing."

I am sorry, but no it's not "mind blowing", it is a simple reality many people understand early on, and then progress forward from.

You have not presented with us anything new or profound, you have not presented anything that expands my, and I am assuming anyone else's way of thinking, I am not hanging around here exchanging words with you to "break free from myself the chains of ignorance"... I originally opposed you to show you a different perspective, then you jut started insulting me and everyone else who brought up valid and imposing points.

Then most recently you gave us a nice quote from a book that is used primarily for the advancement of SOCIALIST ideals..... This speaks volumes of where your understanding and concepts comes from, in such a way that it really goes beyond any need for attempt at countering and highlights the subjectivity in which you assign the title "great minds".

You say you have never lived your life from the principles of victim hood and then turn around try and explain to us how we need to wake up and free ourselves from the chains of oppression. The problem with arguing with you is none of your objective points or observations are wrong, however that you are using them to displace the personal responsibility of life, not to give freedom of thought and choice like you claim too.

"I have been explaining very real schools of thought."

I know, I get it....I CHOSE TO NOT FALL VICTIM TO THOSE OPPRESSIVE SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT, instead choosing those wh