Why Men Love Bitches!! (Page 4)

"* So, what happens to these women if men suddenly decide they don't want independent women anymore?

Because they have worked on having their own lives. They have kept all their friends, their interests, their scheduels ... they will be fine and WAY, WAY better off than had they given these up and had nothing in their life, no support system, and no identity."

Again, you seemed to have completely missed my point and seem to be arguing the same thing over and over again. And you were the one complain to me about "context". Perhaps you should try reading it again, in context.

You are stuck in defense mode, try to remove your emotions from the situation and approach it objectively.

I believe I am part of the whole alcheme. I believe I am no more or less special than anyone else.

I was sharing with you what happened to me when I lost my innocence, which happened durring my saturn returns. Obviously, it is not something you wish to honour. Your choice.

* But, on another note, merely because your experiences have given you answers, does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones or that they are correct for everyone.

I completely agree! I believe perception is individualistic. I think people should question, question, question and reach their own conclusions.

The only thing I AM adament about is that women deserve to have happy, self-fufilling lives.

The rest is perception.

I also am very tired of being condescended too.

When you give up innocence, you become an adult.

"We can all learn from each other."

Yes, we can... Unfortunately, you seem to be the only person on this topic unwilling to try to do that. I would love to hear some actual points debating the actual substance of my thoughts I have posted, that is why I took the time to post them. I wanted an intellectual discussion in the hopes of learning something, either about you, me, or just life in general...

Actually, I am not in defense mode. I am sitting with an open heart, in calm, and peace. EARLIER, I was in defence mode.

"I was sharing with you what happened to me when I lost my innocence, which happened durring my saturn returns. Obviously, it is not something you wish to honour. Your choice."

I never discounted, or meant to discount, your experience(s) and what you learned from them. I merely took offense that you so easily seemed to discount everyone else's and what they may have learned from them.

"I also am very tired of being condescended too."

Same here. That is the point I was trying to make... If you don't want to be condescended to, then perhaps you should try not to condescend others. LOL!

Alcheme

Perhaps I don't understand your point.

You are saying they are playing at independence but what they are doing is disguising their dependence? Am I not correct? Is that your point?

I am not being condescending. I am sitting with an open heart.

I am not attacking anyone. I am not defensive. This is all projection. It is all your perception of what I am feeling. (I was pissed off earlier but not enough to even vent to anyone.)

And yes. I was mean and bitchy earlier but I was under attack.

If that is your point, I would appreciate it if you made my point, on that topic, back to me.

* See that is where you, not others, have completely missed the boat... You far too easily jump to onclusions, and far too easily jump to the incorrect ones. It's called a defense mechanism...

alcheme

I was at this for an entire day before you came along. I wasn't even refering to you when I was talking about this.

"You are saying they are playing at independence but what they are doing is disguising their dependence? Am I not correct? Is that your point?"

One of them, yes. There is always root emotion. And, sometimes an emotion itself stems from another one. Jealousy stems from insecurity (either real or perceived). Many people would state that jealousy is the problem, but I believe the true problem is the insecurity that causes the jealousy. Independence can come in many forms, but when that independence stems directly from dependence, the independence is only as permanent as the dependence allows. When that independence threatens the goals desired by the dependence, the independence will be discarded. That form of independence is nothing more than dependence in a prettier package.

I can't wait for you to post because I am tired. I also have a bad cold and want to go to bed.

I will reword my answer, although it would have been better had you reworded it so I could see where the miscommunication was happening, if there was any.

Have you ever heard of fake it till you make it? Sometimes the why doesn't matter. By the very act of doing the healthful action, you become healthy. If you have diabetes and start eating better, exercising more, etc ... it doesn't change the fact that you are becoming more healthy. (that is a bad example but you get what I mean.)

The very act of behaving in healthy ways will eventually make you more healthy regardless of the reason. I understand what you are saying and in the beginning you are right absolutely. The woman is just disguising her dependency but over time, over time she begins to enjoy the people she meets at her new book club. She enjoys reading the books, going to the meetings, making new friends. She suddenly has a life of her own that she enjoys.

You may disagree with the method but it does work. I have seen it transform lives. Eventually, she might even decide that the guy she was so dependent on isn't the one for her, because she is in a detached, healthy, place.

"(I was pissed off earlier but not enough to even vent to anyone.)"

I vented a concept, not you...the concept that women are helplessly subjected to brainwashing by society (sarcasticaly paraphrased). It is merely called passion for what you believe in. And to clarify, last night I vented to nic and today I vented on the forum in my first post, which subsequently returned me to me normal at peace state.

"If that is your point, I would appreciate it if you made my point, on that topic, back to me."

By gaining independence by any means necessary, they achieve the independence necessary to not fall back into old habits (dependence) when they fall on rough times. And, the marketing tactic of catering to women's dependence and desire to find a man to validate their existence at any cost allows the philosphy to be reached, and thus help, a larger audience. How'd I do?

Good, I understand your point completely.

(and thank you for getting back to the issue at hand. lol!)

The very act of taking self-affirming action, regardless of motivation, is a step towards independence and self-esteem. And with every step towards independence, dependence weakens a little. With every new friend made, with every new hobby, step, by step, by step you find yourself becoming stronger. Because eventually, you enjoy the new activity or friend and you are no longer doing it to keep Larry interested in you, you are doing it because you enjoy it.

Some people exercise to lose weight and then realize they feel so good, that they continue to exercise after they lose the weight. They have changed their habit.

Dependence is just a habit wether it is to a man, substance, or other.

"which subsequently returned me to me normal at peace state."

With the addition of pure frustation, mind you...

YAY

At least we are on the same page alcheme. You type faster than I do. lol!

Thank you for understanding my point. My frustration was because I didn't feel heard.

understanding regardless of agreeing with it or not.

It matters not that you agree with it as long as you understand where I am coming from.

🙂

"Dependence is just a habit wether it is to a man, substance, or other."

And as N.A. will teach you, druggies merely have a tendency of switching their drug of choice. Perhaps in this case, "independence"...

I am going to think over the rest of your post(s) before I respond to them...

"Thank you for understanding my point. My frustration was because I didn't feel heard."

Same here... Yes, I am glad we can finally see each others points, whether or not we agree.

I rather you didn't. I am very satisfied that you got the main point I was making.

I believe women and men are victims of social conditioning. You do not.
I believe we are all the same at heart, with the same needs, fears, etc. You do not.

None of it really matters.

I just wanted you to understand WHY I believed this was so important and WHY I got my back up. Which you have, wether you agree with me or not. Doesn't matter.

Have a good night.

🙂

hugs

***s it crunchy? I hope you like it, because if you fallow things like that "false perception of what a women should be and shouldn't be" I commend you on your blinde flight through life.
If only I could stumble around in the dark and say " I must..I must..I must be a cookiemonster..so boys will like me".***

Again DD, for the mature. I don't have anything to prove youngster. It is proven through my work and deed! Listen! Unless you are a weak woman then the pretence is pretending to be submissive to what YOU THINK a man wants not what you REALLY want, which is (in my case) to be myself, but maybe you aren't that strong!

I had no doubt, if given the opportunity, we could see each other's points. Part of this is because I am in a cold medication haze.

I am glad we both feel validated and honoured. I am also glad we both stuck this out.

Sending you a happy hug and wishing you a wonderful night.

Hope you feel better when you wake up, LS

"hugs all around, and I want one too 'cause I read all this ... "

ROFL!

JR

* but we have same issues - guys can get just as dependant

Is this true? I would actually be interested in hearing more about this.

I would also be interested in knowing what you learned about us through this debate.

Alcheme

Thanks! Meeee tooo. I am off to bed now.

🙂

'It stands for a Babe In Total Control of Herself.'

***QS you want me to read this?***

Antibling,
No not really seeing you perfer the cave man affect and hit your woman over the head. Or have them like the woman Eddie Murphey was going to marry in Coming to America. Then no women as myself and LS and other independent woman would intimidate you obviously, so yeah you stick with the weak and meek more your speed. LOL!!!

The point about the book people are missing is clearly it tells women to be other than what they are.

Okay this is true if you are a weak, needy and unindependant woman. Meaning, that those attributes are not good for self first, therefore aren't good for others, including men, friends, family etc for that matter. I know I don't want a friend who is always clingy and can't stand up for him or herself. Who just agrees with me because that is what they think I want to hear...

The book is targeted for the strong and independent woman to stay true to herself in that way and not change it for a man, friend or family....

Damn!!! Get it now?

Sorry. The book tells woman not to be other than who they are for anyone... Man or other people! Simple... Empowering even for un assured women. Sorry, I don't know too many men or even other female friends who want a whinny, clingy dependable friend around. That is a burden not an addition to friendship or otherwise...

Jr, that is the best point you made all night.... Guys can get just as dependant. Trust I know. I have had a guy or two do that to me and I ran like hell. As I would imagine guys want to do in a similar situation with dependent women.

Not interested in female dogs.

I think Queen does an excellent job telling guys where she stands and how she feels.

Thanks Atom... I definitely try, even if it comes out too direct and (some Librans) can't deal with it and hide. Then say they want to talk and hide again... So funny but hey if that is the way that particular Libra is then there is nothing wrong with it, it is just him and I am me. One who is so tired of silly games...

Onwar and upward. Aries are soooo hotttt!!!

*sizzle*

LOL at Atom comment.

interested in cookies.

"interested in cookies."

Oreos?!? I sooo had to get some double-stuffed oreos at the store when I went the other day. Yummy!!!

* To get the things I want out of life, I'm having to change.

Perhaps. But there is great magic in dreaming big and embracing your passion.

* What the hell, we're so close, may as well take the thread to 300.

hee hee! That is my theory!

Perhaps I should have said dream big and follow your intuition. Just feed passion into your dream and follow the little nudges. Amazing results happen when you do this.

Then you have completely misunderstood who I am. 🙂

I believe you have to jump off bridges. You have to live and follow your passions. So yes ... since finding my passion ... I am willing to risk everything and fail completely.

I figured out what I wanted to do with my life one Saturday night sitting on the couch. By Monday, I found a group of likeminded individuals (following the hunch) by Saturday I was part owner of a company ... I am now actively pursuing my passion on my own time.

But the thing is, and this is the biggest thing, you have to admit what you TRULY desire. Because when you figure that out, you automatically propel yourself forward. It keeps you going. It helps you through those 16 hr days.

But admitting it. Looking into your desire. THAT is the hard part. then you just follow the hunches and voila, you are who you dreampt you could be.

I will leap off bridges into love. I just haven't found my bridge.

Everyone does the safe expected thing JR. We all deny our true desires. I am not sure why we do this. I am not sure what we are afraid of.

For the longest time, I was afraid of ending up on the streets. But once I really figured out what I wanted, I have NO FEAR of that at all. I really don't care. The passion kills the fear.

Every chance in life is a risk... Nothing is gauranteed so go for what you truly desire and let the chips fall where they may. Which to me is better than taking the same risk on something something you don't really desire in the first place. But, yeah like LS says, we all love to feel safe.

I am actually procrastinating on a project because of safety so I am trying to take my own advice here and just do it, win or fail.

Sometimes you need someone to show you how to jump.

The last leo was that person for me. He was doing exactly what he wanted to do and was/is better off than I was/am. Since, I have met many people making tons of dough doing this. We are talking budgets of tens of millions of dollars. All sorts of doors have opened for me.

Had I never jumped ... I never would have flown.

And it is very much like jumping but it kind of feels like a big click. Like all the parts of your life suddenly make sense because you are doing what you were meant to do.

🙂

* standing on the high dive looking at the water I am.

this is how it feels until you figure it out. I was always on the high dive trying to figure it out which way to go but the moment I figured out what I really longed to do, I stepped off the high dive.

🙂

JR

I will pm you.

🙂

JR....all of us Libras are big dreamers, it's a wonderful thing. I am the opposite, I have always been the risk taker, to the opposite extent of you playing it safe all the time. The biggest secret to taking risks is following your gut, and then just going for it, having faith that youl come out of it wiser and stronger, weather it works out or not.

The way I always looked at it was I can take this risk and lose a lot more, but if I don't take this risk I will always have wished I had. The problem though, is that this has bitten me in the ass. Just like playing it safe can keep you from what your real desires are, taking risks all the time can keep you off balance for long periods of time, putting you under more stress than the thing your chasing was worth in some cases. You learn how to take those risks, and Im figuring out how to be more rational and thought out about my risk taking.

***OK then.......intimaidated by one as your good self,with rocks for brains....
I don't really have time for the weak and meek,fwiw...***

Antibling. Clearly you can't handle the strong and independant. Or for that matter, recognize them either... Intellect dear. If they are rocks they are intelligent ones...

It's okay, every man isn't meant to be able to handle a strong, intelligent and independant woman... Sorry you had to be one... 🙂

Ok.... I am not trying to restart the fire here LS but I had to go to work last night just when things were getting civil and progress was made.

I wading the storm of all of that back and forth attacking to get to one thing, wow it took a lot of wading, but I knew you would come around to saying it eventually, I knew if I said it, it wouldn't be the same. Just so you know, I understood your point completely, I just don't agree. This is what I was waiting to here.

"I believe women and men are victims of social conditioning. You do not."

Which is reduced to: Men and Women are of...

This is the principle that I disagree with. We are all tried and tested through pain and suffering in life. Everyone in different ways, everyone deals with it differently and you can become one of two people when the dust clears. One is that you are a victim of life, that the pain and suffering was imposed on you and you can't deal with it, and the other is that it was simply an experience that was meant for you to grow in a certain way. The latter type of people do not consider themselves victims, in fact, the latter type of people refer to those who feel they are victims in life volunteers. They choose to be victims.

We have all been through rough times. The reason I didn't share my experiences with you is because in the end they are irrelevant and usually result in people comparing and battling about who has had a harder time. That is what alchemy was referring too when it was brought up that doing so is like devaluing other peoples bad experiences.

Essentially. There are not victims in life, only volunteers. It is a really hard concept to swallow, and a lot of people in different parts of the world are led into the volunteer role by conditioning, and conditions. But at the end of the day, everyone chooses, everyone. Unless you have a gun to your head you are in control of the situation...if you want to be.

I agree with you that on some levels we are all the same with the same core and the same needs but on others I do not. I understand you, and I think that the way you believe this makes you a humanitarian at heart, and that is good. It is not the only way to be one, but it is a good way to be one.

We are all socially conditioned, it is never going to change. In the end it is the individual who chooses to surrender the control to the conditioning, or take charge of their own mind, body and soul.

*Which is reduced to: Men and Women (PEOPLE) are (VICTIMS) of... *

sorry, I used brackets for that in the last post and it was omitted. Makes a bit more sense now.

Great points Nic.