Does the end justify the means?

Does the end justify the means?


Do you agree or disagree with the concept that...

"... using bad or immoral methods are acceptable, as long as you accomplish something good by using them."



If you agree, why?

If not, do you think there are exceptions to this rule-- for instance, helping someone you love?



Thanks 🙂

Strongly disagree, you will never accomplish something good by bad or immoral methods, at the end of the day karma is a bitch.
I believe in doing good and that everything (even bad things) happen for a reason

Posted by Montgomery
Does the end justify the means?


Do you agree or disagree with the concept that...

"... using bad or immoral methods are acceptable, as long as you accomplish something good by using them."



If you agree, why?

If not, do you think there are exceptions to this rule-- for instance, helping someone you love?



Thanks 🙂

Example of bad moral methods please? Too general.

Posted by LetltB
Example of bad moral methods please? Too general.

Sure.

To clarify

Would you do something that you, personally, know is wrong in order to accomplish something that you believe to be good.


Steal

Kill

Deceive

Destroy

Etc

Posted by Montgomery

Posted by LetltB
Example of bad moral methods please? Too general.

Sure.

To clarify

Would you do something that you, personally, know is wrong in order to accomplish something that you believe to be good.


Steal

Kill

Deceive

Destroy

Etc

click to expand

Thanks for clarifying...and NO lol, not even for a loved one. In a self defense situation, I would kill if I had to and not think twice and I believe destroy would go with that.

Karma...is very real. If all of those you list are done maliciously to get where one wants to get, they may get there..but they will pay a price in return. Karma sees to it...always.

For me "bad or immoral" means on a first instance the extremes: killing somebody, abusing somebody, etc.
On a not so extreme note for all the grey areas "dont do unto others what you dont what others do to unto you".
I will put it on a more specific way: if somebody that I love needed an organ to survive, will I kill somebody to get that organ? No, I would try to make their lives as happy as possible until they die.
Another example, one of my friends met her know fiancee when she was in a long distance relationship and cheat on her then boyfriend with her now fiancee. Even now engaged they fight all the time because neither can fully trust the other considering how they began their relationship.... Again karma is a bitch.
Does it make more sense now?

I have a story here, happened with a chick I know. Sounds like straight out of movies.

Her bf got into a car crash. The cost of the operation was too high for the family to support. The surgeon was actually a guy who had a crush on her for a while so he said he will take care of him free of charge if she agrees to a one night stand with him. She did that.

Bf woke up, she told him straight up what she did..he never wanted to see her again, despite her agreeing to this shit to save his life. I think in the moment there were no other alternatives available.

I get his point but I get hers more.

Nobody can accurate predict how they will act on a life or death situation. My point was more about a conscious decision where you do have a choice.
Tiziani what do you mean?

Posted by aurora
if my memory serves me well, and it's not, i remember that professor of university of philosophy in my country, gave this example of moral paradox:
you are in the middle of ww2. you are a civilian. you were captured among other civilians and some nasty nazi dude is giving you 2 choices. nazi dude is giving you a gun to kill one of the civilians or he will kill everyone. what will you do.

seriosly idk.

If he's stupid enough to give me a loaded gun, I'd put a bullet in the Nazi's head and die. That would be my last FUCK YOU I suppose.

Fox I don't have any children and I guess every mom here can agree that you can't talk about what you would do for a child unless you have one. But I did put your scenario into the "life or death" situation.

Posted by aurora
ok, good answer. and than other nazi dudes kill everyone cause you didn't choose. the situation is like this, if you kill one person, you are all free to go.

No...I'm not going to kill GOOD PEOPLE, (he's going to do that anyway)..I'm going to kill him and take out any other bad guy standing around before I get blasted out of my shoes. It's my choice to kill the bad one. That time when the Nazi drops and I get to kill another Nazi could be the saving grace of the civilians. It's a strategy and a choice that ends his force leaving room for hope of the remaining civilians.

Posted by Montgomery
Does the end justify the means?


Do you agree or disagree with the concept that...

"... using bad or immoral methods are acceptable, as long as you accomplish something good by using them."



If you agree, why?

If not, do you think there are exceptions to this rule-- for instance, helping someone you love?



Thanks 🙂

I tend to agree.

Everything is justifiable. Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter.

Posted by tiziani

Posted by Damnata
I have a story here, happened with a chick I know. Sounds like straight out of movies.

Her bf got into a car crash. The cost of the operation was too high for the family to support. The surgeon was actually a guy who had a crush on her for a while so he said he will take care of him free of charge if she agrees to a one night stand with him. She did that.

Bf woke up, she told him straight up what she did..he never wanted to see her again, despite her agreeing to this shit to save his life. I think in the moment there were no other alternatives available.

I get his point but I get hers more.

what was his point?

click to expand

His point was it was cheating and he would've rather died than finding out she fucked another man. He respected her way too much and was actually hurt she had to go through this.

I don't know if his emphasis was on the cheating or on her being hurt...and it makes a world of a difference for me.

Yes and no. While I agree with his categorical imperative I don't believe is a universal law as he affirmed, as I said before it doesn't apply to life or death situations.
As a side comment I'm more self centered than kant. I only think in terms of myself, what would make me sleep well at night and only take the "don't do to others..." as a measure tool of my own actions rather than how people should act or not act like kant did...

He was unconscious.

Not sure what I would do to be honest.

Posted by Fox
This topic reminded me of breaking bad.

It does! lol

Exactly.

I think I'd screw him too.

From my point of view it's not about my ego or his ego..it's about saving a loved one's life. That's the best compliment I could give them.

But I also see where he comes from.

I asked the Aries about it: "You'd be dead for me seriously. I would appreciate it but the relationship would have no point from that moment on...I wouldn't help myself and I'd run us both into the ground"

So that is that lol.

Posted by LittleMissPerfectNobody can accurate predict how they will act on a life or death situation. My point was more about a conscious decision where you do have a choice.
Tiziani what do you mean?

I was talking about conscious decisions, as well; when you're in fight or flight mode, you're running on pure instinct meant to keep you (and yours) safe.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone their reaction to something like that.


Another example might be the actions of a government:

They ask for your help in rooting out and exposing the minority dissidents.

The platform? "No one will ever go hungry again!

Unprecedented wealth for everyone! Milk and honey!"

Would you participate in corralling the people whose only crime is not supporting the government's authority, if you thought they were standing in the way?


Or a drug dealer who sold to kids-- would you plant evidence on him to get him arrested, if you knew you wouldn't get caught?

Posted by tiziani
It's not really giving someone their life back if you've now totally changed their reality. Assuming she was that important to him of course. But maybe she wasn't and he was only thinking about the physical.

Completely agree with the bolded part.

Posted by duchessedenemours
Personally I would have recorded the doctor making that proposition and blackmailed him into the surgery. 😄

I think few people would have the wit/sense/sanity to do that.

It's more like a fight or flight scenario.

Posted by Jizzusizjizzin

Posted by Montgomery
Does the end justify the means?


Do you agree or disagree with the concept that...

"... using bad or immoral methods are acceptable, as long as you accomplish something good by using them."



If you agree, why?

If not, do you think there are exceptions to this rule-- for instance, helping someone you love?



Thanks 🙂

I tend to agree.

Everything is justifiable. Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter.

click to expand

Ah! A moral relativist.

Then I guess the question almost doesn't apply-- if nothing is bad then nothing is good, either.

Like that?

Well it all looks good on paper but when it comes right down to the nitty-gritty human survival instinct will take over.

Posted by duchessedenemours

Posted by Damnata

Posted by duchessedenemours
Personally I would have recorded the doctor making that proposition and blackmailed him into the surgery. 😄

I think few people would have the wit/sense/sanity to do that.

It's more like a fight or flight scenario.

I would be so outraged if someone ever tried to put me in that position. Fight or flight, whatever. I would be ruthless. That is seriously one of the most despicable displays of manipulation I've ever heard. He'd be going down.

click to expand

I think he went down and doesn't practice medicine anymore.

Posted by duchessedenemours

Posted by Wynter
Well it all looks good on paper but when it comes right down to the nitty-gritty human survival instinct will take over.

Ends justifying the means though, seems to involve a situation where there is foresight available and a conscious decision.

Fight or flight requires someone to attack first in a life-threatening way and doesn't really involve trying to get anything outside physical survival.

I think fight or flight is completely different scenario.

click to expand

I agree.

Sooo

No one would compromise their fellow man for a shot at Utopia?

Ending world hunger?






A shot at Alan Rickman?

Posted by Montgomery

Posted by Jizzusizjizzin

Posted by Montgomery
Does the end justify the means?


Do you agree or disagree with the concept that...

"... using bad or immoral methods are acceptable, as long as you accomplish something good by using them."



If you agree, why?

If not, do you think there are exceptions to this rule-- for instance, helping someone you love?



Thanks 🙂

I tend to agree.

Everything is justifiable. Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter.

Ah! A moral relativist.

Then I guess the question almost doesn't apply-- if nothing is bad then nothing is good, either.

Like that?

click to expand

Yeah, I guess you could say that.

Posted by Prince_Pisces
Yes, if it meant that I got what I wanted at the end —

No scruples-- interesting; but you totally got it. 🙂


You aren't concerned about karma or even retribution if someone found out?

Posted by duchessedenemours
Damn bringing Alan Rickman up is a low blow! 😄

Heh 😄

Posted by Damnata

Posted by tiziani
It's not really giving someone their life back if you've now totally changed their reality. Assuming she was that important to him of course. But maybe she wasn't and he was only thinking about the physical.

Completely agree with the bolded part.

click to expand

His reaction is absurd...
He wouldn't even have a reality if it wasn't for her.
And, unless you believe in life after death or reincarnation she just bought him another ticket continue this wild ride we call life.
I think his reaction is fucked up considering he has time to think about it and willingly chooses to push away someone who loves him so much that she would put aside her dignity and allow another man to humiliatingly have his way with her just so he could live. I mean shit even if they are no more he's fucking alive BUT unfortunately he's a fucking idiot.

There are a couple things that are universally found wrong by all mankind.

Any country, group, or person who takes part in them will certainly be seen in violation of human rights.

That said I do think depending on the situation the the means do justify the ends.

Like nazi example killing someone good so the rest will live is going to be viewed as wrong but I doubt anyone would hold it against you. The problem is what makes you think your life is more valuable then someone else? It's truly a cowards choice and I would view it as wrong personally.

In that same vein killing the nazi IS still killing BUT in this particular instance, "due to the circumstances of the situation", these Nazis are violating human rights and furthermore killing the Nazi is at most merely self defense.

Certain things like killing or stealing are abstractly by themselves wrong to us all. But, depending on who you do them to and why you are doing it to them are what are more important than the act by themselves.

Anyone, with half a brain knows that.

Posted by fishinamaize
No the ends do not justify the means, morally. That's just too much of a slippery slope, because if you assert that something is bad, you have a defined moral line. But if you try and find justification for crossing that line, well... where do you define where that's okay? The line is blurred and subjective. If morality is subjective, then its purpose ceases to exist. If someone you care about is getting murdered, would you kill their assailant if it was the only way to save their life? What if they're starving to death in the mountains and the only way to save their life is to murder someone else and eat them?

But now I sound Kant, and fuck that dude. Anyway, I would totally break my own moral code for a higher purpose, I'm just saying... it wouldn't justify shit.

So basically your saying that committing immoral things no matter the reason are not justifiable BUT you would still do it?

Because otherwise your post is totally confusing and appears to contradict itself.

And to add to it fishy

What is morality based off of? Who sets the rules anyways?

I know where your going with the slippery slope of subjective justification. And, honestly when you make decisions that break rules or moral codes that only benefit yourself I would totally agree with you. When you act like your perception of reality is the only right reality your are heading in the direction of relativism and insanity... chaos.

BUT

At the same time following rules so rigidly no matter what the circumstances may be opens the doors for people to bend the rules and control you because they know you won't violate your supposed moral code. Following rules without reason is like being brainwashed. You following your rules of moral ONLY BENEFITS the abuser and no one else when it comes down to it.

If we lived in a utopia then yes breaking the rules are always wrong.

You could think about it scientifically like before the "abuser" broke and abused the rules to benefit his liking he was a part of the perfect utopia we all were enjoying before he violated the "moral line" as you say. And if we all just sit and continue to follow the rules we give this violator power...
The only way to bring order to the Utopia again is to bend the rules back. Kinda like for every action their is an opposite and equal reaction.

Posted by fishinamaize
nd once morality becomes grey, in my personal opinion (feel free to disagree) it loses its purpose. That's why I personally don't have a moral code. I do what is best suited to my interests based off of common sense, but not off of a perception of right or wrong.

Well that makes more sense..

Your first post seemed to say the exact opposite lol ^.^

PP is absolute.

Posted by Montgomery
Does the end justify the means?


Do you agree or disagree with the concept that...

"... using bad or immoral methods are acceptable, as long as you accomplish something good by using them."



If you agree, why?

If not, do you think there are exceptions to this rule-- for instance, helping someone you love?



Thanks 🙂

Forgot to reply to the topic at hand and DeNiro is ignoring me..

So..yeah I don't agree with that. I have my principles I choose to live by, for better or for worse.

The world is pretty gray though so I try to make way for different scenarios. I just haven't encountered any where the end would've justified the means in my life.

I will think about this more.

Posted by NotYourAverageAquarius

Posted by Damnata

Posted by tiziani
It's not really giving someone their life back if you've now totally changed their reality. Assuming she was that important to him of course. But maybe she wasn't and he was only thinking about the physical.

Completely agree with the bolded part.

His reaction is absurd...
He wouldn't even have a reality if it wasn't for her.
And, unless you believe in life after death or reincarnation she just bought him another ticket continue this wild ride we call life.
I think his reaction is fucked up considering he has time to think about it and willingly chooses to push away someone who loves him so much that she would put aside her dignity and allow another man to humiliatingly have his way with her just so he could live. I mean shit even if they are no more he's fucking alive BUT unfortunately he's a fucking idiot.

click to expand

Your fixedness, you need to make way for other mindsets as well. When I heart about it, my thoughts echoed yours precisely. It was an amazing sacrifice she did for him.

But upon thinking further, who am I to blame his mindset. For a lot of people life isn't worth living anymore if they feel in debt to someone..they'd rather die. Think of people who want to choose to be put down, despite the family fighting tooth and nail to preserve their life. It's their choice and it should've been his.

I understand where you come from, like I said. I actually see his point, idiot or not.

Posted by Damnata

Your fixedness, you need to make way for other mindsets as well. When I heart about it, my thoughts echoed yours precisely. It was an amazing sacrifice she did for him.

But upon thinking further, who am I to blame his mindset. For a lot of people life isn't worth living anymore if they feel in debt to someone..they'd rather die. Think of people who want to choose to be put down, despite the family fighting tooth and nail to preserve their life. It's their choice and it should've been his.

I understand where you come from, like I said. I actually see his point, idiot or not.

First off, he's not able to give his input on how he would or would not feel about living or not living.. he's friggen unconscious. She has to make a decision based off of assumptions no matter what she chooses to do. Let's say you where her.. and you decided OH NO I will not sleep with this doctor because it is against my religious conviction or moral standards. You know your gonna question yourself the rest of your damned life whether you should have done that or not... and likely blame his death on yourself. Do you think you could live with yourself had you not?

And furthermore, when someone does something for you it was their choice. Why do people think when they do things for others it inherently makes the person they are providing for indebted to them? I do shit for people everyday that I DON'T EVEN KNOW without expecting anything in return and neither should she. That dudes life was given back to him for him to decide what he wanted to do with it. I mean he should feel indebted but only as an idea. Besides, he could never repay her for it anyways. And, if he doesn't like the fact that she is the reason he was brought back to life ... here's an easy solution.. go jump of a cliff.

Aqua, I already stated what I would do and yeah, I would sleep with him too.

On your second point, I do the same thing with people so I totally get where you're coming from. The TRUTH however is that the majority looks at it as a debt..so I was speaking for the majority there.

In the end, it's his mindset, his life. You're way too adamant about him being in the wrong. Honestly if we look at the bigger picture since they broke up over this...this was one of the moments in life where it's clear your values don't match your partner's so in a way it's better they reached that point sooner. Later down the line something else would've happened and made them break up. Who know, though?

It's why I love life so much...these scenarios that happen in a blink of an eye that really show what you're made of.

Damnata,

I know in this particular situation you have brought up there are lots of things to consider.

BUT

Life is not always so simple and not always so complicated. When a problem in life seems simple to fix or a situation seems simpler then you think it should... it is often beneficial to look at it from a far more complex possibility and consider details you would normally have figured irrelevant beforehand. Likewise, when life is complicated it sometimes is far more beneficial for us to sit back and look at the big picture. To take our minds away from being over logged and jammed up by the distractions the details of the situation are posing us.

This women obviously still loves this guy. This man is obviously lucky to be alive. To treat people with utter disgust and rudeness when they have done something for us is just tactless and absolutely self-centered.

Posted by Damnata
His point was it was cheating and he would've rather died than finding out she fucked another man. He respected her way too much and was actually hurt she had to go through this.

I don't know if his emphasis was on the cheating or on her being hurt...and it makes a world of a difference for me.

No matter which way he's leaning they are both just excuses to me.
I'm not condoning what she did... but whose he to judge her? I mean WHO THE FUCK IS HE HONESTLY—...Jesus Christ of Nazareth ^.^? She did the best she thought she could do under the current time constrained circumstances the situation presented her. Maybe had she had more time to consider the possibilities or been more keen of thought she could have come up with an even more devious way to get the doctor to do the surgery without requiring her to have sex with him, such as blackmailing like what twinkle said earlier. But isn't blackmail technically immoral as well?

he is focusing on what she did... NOT WHY she did it. And not ONLY WHY she did it, but the CIRCUMSTANCES for which she chose to do it. Your right I am being rigid because guess what so is he LOL. And doggedly inconsiderate and selfish minded as well. "I cannot have a women who would have done such a thing I deserve soOoOoOo much better" pfft.... dude sounds like asshole to me.

Your right Damnata... I am adamant about him being wrong but I can drop it too I guess if these are people you still know and hold dear to your heart. You'll jus

Aqua, your message got cut off. Do you have the rest?

I've been watching this new show called Black Sails, it's pretty cool touches up on what's being discussed. Life on a personal level I haven't really had to make immoral choices, but I've had it both working and backfire on me either way, so it's definitely one of those things where the end doesn't even matter...

E.g. Out of charity you decide to help a person based on your own moral code. This person could either become dependent and leech of you, they could be thankful you've gotten them out of a pinch, or they put themselves in the situation and despise you for helping them.

Obviously it's per scenario. I'd do a lot for my loved ones, if it has to involve something immoral it better be a form of retribution because I just simply don't believe in gaining anything from hurting anyone else.

Posted by Damnata
Forgot to reply to the topic at hand and DeNiro is ignoring me..

So..yeah I don't agree with that. I have my principles I choose to live by, for better or for worse.

The world is pretty gray though so I try to make way for different scenarios. I just haven't encountered any where the end would've justified the means in my life.

I will think about this more.

Lies!

lol I wasn't ignoring-- there were just too many talking over you. 😉

And yes, I'm about the same-- never really been put in a situation where the decision was *too* difficult.

Usually, if I'm torn between two options.. once I settle on what is essentially the "right" thing to do (imo), I'm relieved.. even if I'm not the one who benefits.

I think duchess mentioned it earlier, but what gets me is that even if no one ever, ever finds outs-- I will always know.

Who wants a life (or any gain for that matter) built on a lie?

Posted by aquasnoz
I've been watching this new show called Black Sails, it's pretty cool touches up on what's being discussed. Life on a personal level I haven't really had to make immoral choices, but I've had it both working and backfire on me either way, so it's definitely one of those things where the end doesn't even matter...

E.g. Out of charity you decide to help a person based on your own moral code. This person could either become dependent and leech of you, they could be thankful you've gotten them out of a pinch, or they put themselves in the situation and despise you for helping them.

Obviously it's per scenario. I'd do a lot for my loved ones, if it has to involve something immoral it better be a form of retribution because I just simply don't believe in gaining anything from hurting anyone else.

I agree.. I like that ^^. 🙂



*looking up Black Sails*

Posted by Montgomery
lol I wasn't ignoring-- there were just too many talking over you. 😉

Did you just seriously say this to an Aries Moon?

I am going to talk over everyone then.

Posted by Damnata

Posted by Montgomery
lol I wasn't ignoring-- there were just too many talking over you. 😉

Did you just seriously say this to an Aries Moon?

I am going to talk over everyone then.

click to expand

I totally did.

And thank you-- I appreciate your effort.

ugh, Monty trolling me.

Posted by Damnata
ugh, Monty trolling me.

Not trolling! lol

I meant every word.

I'm a LEO-- I appreciate ALL good effort focused on me.


And that's DeNiro in Taxi Driver, baby.

Jeez.

Posted by Montgomery

Posted by Damnata

Posted by Montgomery
lol I wasn't ignoring-- there were just too many talking over you. 😉

Did you just seriously say this to an Aries Moon?

I am going to talk over everyone then.

I totally did.

And thank you-- I appreciate your effort.

click to expand

is that a clapping nazi?? lol

uhh nevermind lol!

Posted by Montgomery

Posted by Damnata
ugh, Monty trolling me.

Not trolling! lol

I meant every word.

I'm a LEO-- I appreciate ALL good effort focused on me.


And that's DeNiro in Taxi Driver, baby.

Jeez.

click to expand

I know, I've seen all his movies..until the recent years where he totally lost his mind.