@LadyNeptune
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Removal of Confederate statues and memorials (Page 2)
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Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
The Confederacy- We're going to keep slaves or we'll die from economic collapseThe Union-We're about to win this war by economic collapse. Not because we care about black people who we later are going to still mistreat with jim crow laws and prison, but because we want to win the war
AYYYYYYYYYYYEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
The fact remains: whether the Union truly had equality of all men on its agenda or not (and they didn't), they were still on the right side of that conflict.
Posted by GetMisted
Posted by brianafay
Posted by GetMisted
Posted by brianafay
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
i think its odd. i don't care for the confederate flag, but the statues and memorials are part of history. I don't like the erasure of history just because you don't like it.for instance the genocide on native americans and africans when they were stuck on those boats.
———?
So glad I'm not the only one who felt that way
I feel like especially for "African Americans," who have had so much of their history stolen and repressed already - why would you want that taken away too?
That was your experience !
That would be like the Jews saying they want all evidence of the Holocaust removed because it's too painful to remember - NO because it did happen and we need to remember so it doesn't happen again
I don't see statues of Hitler and Nazi flags being flown around in modern day Germany though..
I get it I get it
But where do we draw the line ?
Do we start removing all memorials for anyone who was a slave holder too? Aka like the first 12 presidents ? Aka our founding fathers?
Correct me if I'm wrong.. But I don't think Presidents and representations of them, be it statues or currency, are generally thought of as symbols of oppression and racism much like the Confederate flag is. Other than Andrew Jackson of course
click to expand
Well they should be shouldn't they?
These people supported slavery - why do we honor them ? Why are their faces on our currency ? How is that not a symbol of oppression?! ?
My feeling is people will be triggered no matter what. Censorship only protects feelings, it doesn't change reality. & history is history, even the disgraceful parts
I do agree with many points - and I thank you all for helping me see another side - this is why I posted here ☺️
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by LadyNeptune
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by -elle-
I have a question.This is a legitimate question that I don't know the answer to.
No snark.
I have never been to Germany.
Do they fly the nazi flag and/or have nazi memorials and statues?
No, those symbols are forbidden by law. However, they do have memorials for their soldiers who died during the war.
That's different. No one has asked to remove Confederate soldiers' graves, that I've seen. Only monuments to leaders and slave owners.
You know, I don't really get what all the fuss is about. It's part of history and will remain such. So you demolish a statue showing a Confederate banner.... what gives? It doesn't change the way my neighbour's are talking.
It's not supposed to change a racists mind.
It's supposed to improve the quality of life for poc who need to interact with these spaces where there are monuments praising white supremacy.
Mhm. There is no white supremacy. Nor a black one. There is, and always will be, a supremacy of money.
click to expand
The monuments literally say "white supremacy"
But seriously lol Dazed you brought up something I never thought much about it ...
The faces of men who founded this country on slavery, sold humans for profit, used money to oppress, are plastered on our currency ?
You just can't make this shit up
Posted by MaxPower
I just realized something. The South is the original Land of Butthurt. I come from the Land of Butthurt.
??and cope
When I saw ssupes posting in here I was like
Please god no
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
The south having "pride" in that flag or these monuments for whatever shady or whatever melancholy feelings they have toward it= basically them having pride in losing which
= the epitome of the south
always losing in most negative statistics in the US
Most of those flags have slogans on them like "The South will rise again." I've asked people what the hell that means, and you can see them nearly having aneurysms from the cognitive dissonance of trying to explain how it's not racist.
click to expand
I know people in real life who have told me I need to read a history book if I think the rebel flag has anything to do with the Confederacy. People I went to school with and probably sat in the same classroom with when we learned that the rebel flag DID actually represent the Confederacy.
I've asked them what it stands for if not the Confederacy. The best answer I ever got was, "It's just a Southern pride thing." And these are people who use that flag on Facebook as a profile picture and they live where I live and that's in the North. Way up in the North. We live in the tundra. I come from a rural community and I think some of my old friends identify with that whole "livin' in the country" thing, but they romanticize it without understanding how or why the symbol they use represents something bad.
I'm convinced that most people start off believing something and they just can't face the pain of admitting they were wrong, so they will say or do any stupid thing they can to never cop to it.
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by LadyNeptune
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by LadyNeptune
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by -elle-
I have a question.This is a legitimate question that I don't know the answer to.
No snark.
I have never been to Germany.
Do they fly the nazi flag and/or have nazi memorials and statues?
No, those symbols are forbidden by law. However, they do have memorials for their soldiers who died during the war.
That's different. No one has asked to remove Confederate soldiers' graves, that I've seen. Only monuments to leaders and slave owners.
You know, I don't really get what all the fuss is about. It's part of history and will remain such. So you demolish a statue showing a Confederate banner.... what gives? It doesn't change the way my neighbour's are talking.
It's not supposed to change a racists mind.
It's supposed to improve the quality of life for poc who need to interact with these spaces where there are monuments praising white supremacy.
Mhm. There is no white supremacy. Nor a black one. There is, and always will be, a supremacy of money.
The monuments literally say "white supremacy"
Guess that was where the money was about that time.
click to expand
Stop trying to make this about money. That's for a different thread.
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by -elle-
I have a question.This is a legitimate question that I don't know the answer to.
No snark.
I have never been to Germany.
Do they fly the nazi flag and/or have nazi memorials and statues?
No, those symbols are forbidden by law. However, they do have memorials for their soldiers who died during the war.
That's different. No one has asked to remove Confederate soldiers' graves, that I've seen. Only monuments to leaders and slave owners.
You know, I don't really get what all the fuss is about. It's part of history and will remain such. So you demolish a statue showing a Confederate banner.... what gives? It doesn't change the way my neighbour's are talking.
That's fine. Don't fight for removal. Are you going to stand in the way of those who do?
It depends. I don't particularly care about any symbol but I don't like history to be falsified. Who controls the past, controls the future.
So, then the monuments should be corrected to accurately reflect who lost both morally and physically, the South.
Surely. And let's also add that the North didn't free slaves because of humanity or love.
That's fine. What's that got to do with anything? If I say something about Trump are you gonna yell "Hillary" reflexively?
It has do do with riding the high horse of morality
What's Trump/Hillary to do with anything?
You blurted out "the North did bad stuff too!" much like Trump supporters blurt out "Hillary's emails!" every time someone mentions that Trump sold our democracy out to the Russians.
No one here has argued that the North didn't have racism of its own. The argument is that the monuments should come down.
For whatever it's worth, we got a president. And whoever that is, may he be successful and have the support of all of us to make our nation prosper. That is my take on things, and my opinion is that whole of America lost during the Civil War.
click to expand
Amen
Also, America deserves this president
He is America
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by -elle-
I have a question.This is a legitimate question that I don't know the answer to.
No snark.
I have never been to Germany.
Do they fly the nazi flag and/or have nazi memorials and statues?
No, those symbols are forbidden by law. However, they do have memorials for their soldiers who died during the war.
That's different. No one has asked to remove Confederate soldiers' graves, that I've seen. Only monuments to leaders and slave owners.
You know, I don't really get what all the fuss is about. It's part of history and will remain such. So you demolish a statue showing a Confederate banner.... what gives? It doesn't change the way my neighbour's are talking.
That's fine. Don't fight for removal. Are you going to stand in the way of those who do?
It depends. I don't particularly care about any symbol but I don't like history to be falsified. Who controls the past, controls the future.
So, then the monuments should be corrected to accurately reflect who lost both morally and physically, the South.
Surely. And let's also add that the North didn't free slaves because of humanity or love.
That's fine. What's that got to do with anything? If I say something about Trump are you gonna yell "Hillary" reflexively?
It has do do with riding the high horse of morality
What's Trump/Hillary to do with anything?
You blurted out "the North did bad stuff too!" much like Trump supporters blurt out "Hillary's emails!" every time someone mentions that Trump sold our democracy out to the Russians.
No one here has argued that the North didn't have racism of its own. The argument is that the monuments should come down.
For whatever it's worth, we got a president. And whoever that is, may he be successful and have the support of all of us to make our nation prosper. That is my take on things, and my opinion is that whole of America lost during the Civil War.
click to expand
Can't see it. My family got lots of land we own today.
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by MonkeyInTheMoon
Posted by -elle-
I have a question.This is a legitimate question that I don't know the answer to.
No snark.
I have never been to Germany.
Do they fly the nazi flag and/or have nazi memorials and statues?
No, those symbols are forbidden by law. However, they do have memorials for their soldiers who died during the war.
That's different. No one has asked to remove Confederate soldiers' graves, that I've seen. Only monuments to leaders and slave owners.
You know, I don't really get what all the fuss is about. It's part of history and will remain such. So you demolish a statue showing a Confederate banner.... what gives? It doesn't change the way my neighbour's are talking.
That's fine. Don't fight for removal. Are you going to stand in the way of those who do?
It depends. I don't particularly care about any symbol but I don't like history to be falsified. Who controls the past, controls the future.
So, then the monuments should be corrected to accurately reflect who lost both morally and physically, the South.
Surely. And let's also add that the North didn't free slaves because of humanity or love.
That's fine. What's that got to do with anything? If I say something about Trump are you gonna yell "Hillary" reflexively?
It has do do with riding the high horse of morality
What's Trump/Hillary to do with anything?
You blurted out "the North did bad stuff too!" much like Trump supporters blurt out "Hillary's emails!" every time someone mentions that Trump sold our democracy out to the Russians.
No one here has argued that the North didn't have racism of its own. The argument is that the monuments should come down.
For whatever it's worth, we got a president. And whoever that is, may he be successful and have the support of all of us to make our nation prosper. That is my take on things, and my opinion is that whole of America lost during the Civil War.
Can't see it. My family got lots of land we own today.
Good for you. Let's just count the death toll, shall we?
click to expand
Death toll of my family? They made sure there were no records as such. They even sealed our history for years. They finally opened "the books" about 15 years ago to the plantation we're descendants from.
Funny huh? Memorials, and welfare projects named after them but, sealed the inventory books recording our family tree.
I can't believe current politics were brought up. My God... smh.
My brother is on a sub with a president telling his location!
Fucking crazy
Posted by brianafay
Posted by GetMisted
Posted by brianafay
Posted by GetMisted
Posted by brianafay
Posted by CaramelizedCoffee
i think its odd. i don't care for the confederate flag, but the statues and memorials are part of history. I don't like the erasure of history just because you don't like it.for instance the genocide on native americans and africans when they were stuck on those boats.
———?
So glad I'm not the only one who felt that way
I feel like especially for "African Americans," who have had so much of their history stolen and repressed already - why would you want that taken away too?
That was your experience !
That would be like the Jews saying they want all evidence of the Holocaust removed because it's too painful to remember - NO because it did happen and we need to remember so it doesn't happen again
I don't see statues of Hitler and Nazi flags being flown around in modern day Germany though..
I get it I get it
But where do we draw the line ?
Do we start removing all memorials for anyone who was a slave holder too? Aka like the first 12 presidents ? Aka our founding fathers?
Correct me if I'm wrong.. But I don't think Presidents and representations of them, be it statues or currency, are generally thought of as symbols of oppression and racism much like the Confederate flag is. Other than Andrew Jackson of course
Well they should be shouldn't they?
These people supported slavery - why do we honor them ? Why are their faces on our currency ? How is that not a symbol of oppression?! ?
My feeling is people will be triggered no matter what. Censorship only protects feelings, it doesn't change reality. & history is history, even the disgraceful parts
I do agree with many points - and I thank you all for helping me see another side - this is why I posted here ☺️
click to expand
I second what was stated above...can't recall who posted it...monuments to past presidents aren't intended to celebrate them for owning slaves. It's unfortunate that we have past presidents who owned slaves, but that isn't why the monuments exist. A monument to someone who is only historically relevent because he fought for the army that wanted to live in a country where slavery was legal is not the same thing.
I won't say I'm not conflicted about it, though. I In a perfect world, we wouldn't honor a slave owner unless he denounced his ways and did something great to atone for what he did wrong.
Just as long as they don't remove confederate anthems. The civil war birthed some catchy tunes.
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by nanobyte
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
The south having "pride" in that flag or these monuments for whatever shady or whatever melancholy feelings they have toward it= basically them having pride in losing which
= the epitome of the south
always losing in most negative statistics in the US
Most of those flags have slogans on them like "The South will rise again." I've asked people what the hell that means, and you can see them nearly having aneurysms from the cognitive dissonance of trying to explain how it's not racist.
Well that would be them having some of the lowest test scores in the country and beyond
Kids in the south are actually pushed harder academically, than anywhere else in the country.
I started schooling on the west coast in elementary, moved to AR in the 2nd grade and had to be placed in remedial courses at 6 years old. I was put in "special" classes for an entire year before I was allowed to rejoin my classmates.
My brother went to school in AR up until 9th grade, moved to WA state, and was immediately placed into senior level courses and thought of as gifted. He was an average student in AR LMAO.
But they are taught next to nothing about history, by design. The Civil War is often taught as a "states rights" issue instead of what it really was, a war fought over civil rights.
click to expand
I'm from Texas. In my experience, we were taught that Abraham Lincoln declared war to reunite the union and although it ended slavery, it wasn't emphasized until we got into Reconstruction.
We need to eliminate all traces of "Sweet Home Alabama" and Georgia On My Mind" from vinyl records, tapes, and CDs. In fact, we need to track down everyone who might have a copy of these songs. They're all praising the South, and are an affront to modern sensibilities.
All works of Samuel Langhorn Clemens need to be burned and erased. After all, he was white, and was raised in Hannibal, Missouri. And his writings used inflammatory language.
Any research based on the work of Jonas Salk needs to be destroyed.
All modern age printing needs to be destroyed. Gutenberg was the devil.
See how easy this is? makes life simple, doesn't it?
Posted by nanobyte
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
The south having "pride" in that flag or these monuments for whatever shady or whatever melancholy feelings they have toward it= basically them having pride in losing which
= the epitome of the south
always losing in most negative statistics in the US
Most of those flags have slogans on them like "The South will rise again." I've asked people what the hell that means, and you can see them nearly having aneurysms from the cognitive dissonance of trying to explain how it's not racist.
Well that would be them having some of the lowest test scores in the country and beyond
Kids in the south are actually pushed harder academically, than anywhere else in the country.
I started schooling on the west coast in elementary, moved to AR in the 2nd grade and had to be placed in remedial courses at 6 years old. I was put in "special" classes for an entire year before I was allowed to rejoin my classmates.
My brother went to school in AR up until 9th grade, moved to WA state, and was immediately placed into senior level courses and thought of as gifted. He was an average student in AR LMAO.
This. I had the same thing happen to me.
The education I got in Tenn trumps that of what was offered in Cali. A girl in my high school bio class thought penguins had fur ffs.
BUT, I do know a lot has changed and there are some pretty abysmal rankings of the south in education now.
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by nanobyte
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
Posted by MaxPower
Posted by AfternoonDelights22
The south having "pride" in that flag or these monuments for whatever shady or whatever melancholy feelings they have toward it= basically them having pride in losing which
= the epitome of the south
always losing in most negative statistics in the US
Most of those flags have slogans on them like "The South will rise again." I've asked people what the hell that means, and you can see them nearly having aneurysms from the cognitive dissonance of trying to explain how it's not racist.
Well that would be them having some of the lowest test scores in the country and beyond
Kids in the south are actually pushed harder academically, than anywhere else in the country.
I started schooling on the west coast in elementary, moved to AR in the 2nd grade and had to be placed in remedial courses at 6 years old. I was put in "special" classes for an entire year before I was allowed to rejoin my classmates.
My brother went to school in AR up until 9th grade, moved to WA state, and was immediately placed into senior level courses and thought of as gifted. He was an average student in AR LMAO.
But they are taught next to nothing about history, by design. The Civil War is often taught as a "states rights" issue instead of what it really was, a war fought over civil rights.
click to expand
Interesting. I don't recall that in my education that I received in the south. I clearly remember both being taught/discussed.
Just finished skimming this thread.
Keep up all that confederate bullshit. Just amend the plaques to have, in great detail, who exactly those douchebags were and what atrocities they were guilty of. They can have their silly confederate bullshit, but it'll come with harsh reminders of what terrible people they were.
No more glorifying the redneck flag and confederacy.
I always loled at the fools who flew those flags and went on about the confederacy. It's like dude, you do realize we're not in the 1800s anymore right?
Though with some pockets in the south, you'd think you were time traveling to that time period.
Posted by Freetobe007
There's absolutely no necessary reason to have those statutes up outside of a museum. The confederacy lost. Those men were fighting to treat black people like cattle; for the "right" to demhumanize others and rape children. For the "right" to reduce black men to breeding machines who were forced to force themselves on black women and to fight each other brutally (Mandingo fights). They wanted to be able to lagally feed slave babies to crocodiles. For fucks sake, they made black men fight in war, with tattered clothes and shoes, for their own oppression, the oppression of their children, and the oppression of their parents.Those men were evil. It's a smack in the face to keep their statues up.
You forgot the part where those same black men were the first line of defense, aka, their human shields.
Posted by 5TwentyOne
Every statue removed needs to be replaced with something. Not something that's PC, but something that is metaphorically significant.
Posted by brianafay
When I saw ssupes posting in here I was likePlease god no
Oh hush.
This is my take on it with the flag crap
Ever rebelled against your parents? Have you ever done something out of spite just because they told you that you couldn't or because they took something from you? That's kinda what I think is going on here. Nobody actually has that kind of heritage anymore (and for good reason).
Now, my roots run deeper than anyone else I know in the south. I'm a direct descendant of Robert E Lee. My biological fathers last name was Lee, as was his fathers for generations before him. I'm not running around screaming "the south will rise again" or throwing a fit because someone wants his face off a mountain in Georgia. The man wasn't even pro-slavery yet he will forever be labeled a racist.
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It's not supposed to change a racists mind.
It's supposed to improve the quality of life for poc who need to interact with these spaces where there are monuments praising white supremacy.