cappysweetie
@cappysweetie
19 Years10,000+ Posts
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Sensitive Topic (I Hope You Can Handle It)
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Oh, I sense some very interesting posts coming on this! We shall wait and see!!!
I will comment later. Im on my way out the door!
I will comment later. Im on my way out the door!
Oh Cappy!! Lol. This is going to be very interesting.
Posted by BellaBulleautiful
"If you are Pro-Life, than 'God will spare you'll soul from damnation' or something like that."
I'm not going to participate in any of this,but perhaps you should know what you're speaking of before you make these statements.
I think Cappy is saying that SOME ppl on the forum have made statements like this before and she does not understand that school of thought. Right Cappy?
Posted by natural25Posted by BellaBulleautiful
"If you are Pro-Life, than 'God will spare you'll soul from damnation' or something like that."
I'm not going to participate in any of this,but perhaps you should know what you're speaking of before you make these statements.
I think Cappy is saying that SOME ppl on the forum have made statements like this before and she does not understand that school of thought. Right Cappy?click to expand
Yep, you are right 😉
Posted by BellaBulleautiful
"If you are Pro-Life, than 'God will spare you'll soul from damnation' or something like that."
I'm not going to participate in any of this,but perhaps you should know what you're speaking of before you make these statements.
^_^. Alrighty then. I knew I was going to stir someone but thats okay.
Listen, I'm an adult and so are (some) of the people on here, included yourself Bella. Can't there be a constructive conversation about this with all that ... other stuff.
I'm sure I can make statements without anyone getting all angry and upset. Its just a statement. I want to know, don't I have a right to ask? How can I know what I speak if I'm trying to learn with all the fuss is about?
Posted by natural25
Oh Cappy!! Lol. This is going to be very interesting.
Oh yeah, well this has been running through my mind for a while now. I'm a very free-thinking girl you see, without or without my religious influence. So, I have a totally different opinion on all of this but I need to see why people are so up-tight and upset or this issue.
I think I have a right to ask ^_^.
Posted by cappysweetiePosted by natural25
Oh Cappy!! Lol. This is going to be very interesting.
Oh yeah, well this has been running through my mind for a while now. I'm a very free-thinking girl you see, without or without my religious influence. So, I have a totally different opinion on all of this but I need to see why people are so up-tight and upset or this issue.
I think I have a right to ask ^_^.click to expand
I think you have a right to ask anything that you are curious about.
I think it boils down to the line between church and state...well the line really not being defined. I am a Christian myself. However, personally, I feel that my religious beleifs should not be imposed on everyone. How I choose to live MY LIFE is not the rule book for everyone else's life. Issues such as pro-choice vs. pro life, gay marriage, etc...all fall under this umbrella of church and state. AND if we do mix church and state, where do we draw the line. Do we begin to arrest folks for having premarital sex or commiting adultury?
People get worked up simple b/c they feel that the way they have chosen to live their lives is the way that everyone else should live their lives. Of course, I a m not speaking for EVERYONE. My opinion is based on covnersations that I have had about this topic with others.
whoever coined the term "Pro-Life" is a genius because you look like an asshole saying you're "Anti-Life"
Well, I grew up very religious. Everywhere I went there was something concerning the spiritual belief of my family. However, I'm not going to let religious mix with social aspects of my life. I like to keep them separate because there are way too many different people in the world for me to just focus on what I was raised on.
Yes, everything in my family was ultra religious and conservative ... until I got a bit older and start to see that there was more to life than the way I was bought up.
I started to explore other religions and compare them to my own was I like 16. Also, I started to actually look at the world through my own eyes instead of holding on to my environmental influences.
Yes, my family faught like hell to keep me pulled in but there was something that called out to me, and it was like a beckoning. I wanted to know more. You know, know more than what I was taught.
When you are young, I think its important to develop your own mind sooner than later. If you don't, you risk being 'stuck' with an isolated way of thinking. I never, ever wanted that to happen to me.
Yes, everything in my family was ultra religious and conservative ... until I got a bit older and start to see that there was more to life than the way I was bought up.
I started to explore other religions and compare them to my own was I like 16. Also, I started to actually look at the world through my own eyes instead of holding on to my environmental influences.
Yes, my family faught like hell to keep me pulled in but there was something that called out to me, and it was like a beckoning. I wanted to know more. You know, know more than what I was taught.
When you are young, I think its important to develop your own mind sooner than later. If you don't, you risk being 'stuck' with an isolated way of thinking. I never, ever wanted that to happen to me.
Posted by i love ewe
whoever coined the term "Pro-Life" is a genius because you look like an asshole saying you're "Anti-Life"
Yeah, Anti-life would look kind of bad lol.
Posted by LeoLadyLovesToBeLoved
Oh, I sense some very interesting posts coming on this! We shall wait and see!!!
I will comment later. Im on my way out the door!
LOL, you took the words out of my mouth dahlin', but I bet you can suspect which side I sit...I'll wait this one out for awhile!
hahahaha, I find it interesting that so many are sitting out ^_^.
I'm not sure what there is to be afraid of. Natural was the only brave one of the bunch. I expect nothing less from her though ^_^.
I'm not sure what there is to be afraid of. Natural was the only brave one of the bunch. I expect nothing less from her though ^_^.
And I'm not sure about the whole side thing either. I mean, why must there be a side to sit on. I guess ... I take no sides on this topic 😉
Posted by cappysweetie
hahahaha, I find it interesting that so many are sitting out ^_^.
I'm not sure what there is to be afraid of. Natural was the only brave one of the bunch. I expect nothing less from her though ^_^.
@ me being brave - Oooh Cappy..stop. I mean go ooonnnn... lol. Jk.
Posted by FeistyAquarian
I personally would never abort a child I was pregnant with...UNLESS it was a product of rape or unless it was just going to have severe problems in life (I'm sorry, but I'm just being truthful! Actually, I'm not sorry about saying that!) However, I have supported a friend through an abortion because I said, "You know, it's your choice. It won't be me raising and supporting the child...it will be you and if you don't feel you can at this point in your life, I will support your decision to do it." I suppose that makes me Pro-Choice, but again, I couldn't do it. Like when I was being an idiot and fooling around way back when, if I would have gotten impregnated, I would have seen that as a consequence to my actions and taken responsibility for it. I know not everyone thinks that way though.
I agree with you 100%
Posted by FeistyAquarian
I personally would never abort a child I was pregnant with...UNLESS it was a product of rape or unless it was just going to have severe problems in life (I'm sorry, but I'm just being truthful! Actually, I'm not sorry about saying that!) However, I have supported a friend through an abortion because I said, "You know, it's your choice. It won't be me raising and supporting the child...it will be you and if you don't feel you can at this point in your life, I will support your decision to do it." I suppose that makes me Pro-Choice, but again, I couldn't do it. Like when I was being an idiot and fooling around way back when, if I would have gotten impregnated, I would have seen that as a consequence to my actions and taken responsibility for it. I know not everyone thinks that way though.
Don't be sorry 🙂 Thats your opinion and theres nothing wrong with it. You're not denouncing someone else's opinion nor are you damning anything by saying how you would handle something like this.
See, I've never been pregnant before but I have seen a friend through an abortion before. I mean, she needed me and I was there. See, this was a senior year of high school and there was so many things going on. There were alot of things said about her after she had everything done, but I will say this, she is doing a heck of alot better than most of the girls who graduated in my class. She's definitely a go getter lol.
It won't be me raising and supporting the child...it will be you and if you don't feel you can at this point in your life, I will support your decision to do it.
This is a fair argument by far.
Honestly, if I were to get pregnant today or tomorrow, I'm not sure what I'd do and I'm being serious. Would I tell someone or would I keep it to myself. Not sure about that either.
It can happen, its something to think about.
This is going to sound really funny, but one of the reasons (one of many) I broke up with my ex-bf back in March was because he didn't like using condoms. I can't take birth-control so that would have meant ... you know and I was not cool with that at all.
He didn't think the risk of pregnancy was a big deal but I sure did. I'm too focused on my career and he knew that but didn't seem to care. He thought that I could do both. Well, of course I could do both BUT it should be my choice whether or not I want to do both.
There was another bf that was way too easy going about pregnancy too and that freaked me out.
This is a fair argument by far.
Honestly, if I were to get pregnant today or tomorrow, I'm not sure what I'd do and I'm being serious. Would I tell someone or would I keep it to myself. Not sure about that either.
It can happen, its something to think about.
This is going to sound really funny, but one of the reasons (one of many) I broke up with my ex-bf back in March was because he didn't like using condoms. I can't take birth-control so that would have meant ... you know and I was not cool with that at all.
He didn't think the risk of pregnancy was a big deal but I sure did. I'm too focused on my career and he knew that but didn't seem to care. He thought that I could do both. Well, of course I could do both BUT it should be my choice whether or not I want to do both.
There was another bf that was way too easy going about pregnancy too and that freaked me out.
Oh and I'm glad you mensioned rap FA. If that were the case, then it would be a no brainer for me. There just no way, being in that I have a certain state of mind, theres no way I could even go through with it.
Okay, FA is another brave one ^_^.
Okay, FA is another brave one ^_^.
I wasnt sitting out, I just wasnt where I had time to comment.
I will just be blunt about it, since that is my personality anyway. I am Pro-Choice. I believe that a woman has the right to decide what occurs on and within her own body. Now, in saying this, I am not actually saying what I would do at this point in my life. As I am not married and honestly have never wanted children, I also understand that certain events occur in your life that totally affect and/or change your expected course of action, sometimes before you even realize it.
So, if I awoke tomorrow morning discovering that I was pregnant would I chose to abort it? Hmmm... I dont know. I can say (knowing that I am not pregnant) that my answer would probably instictively be yes, I would.... however, in the REALITY of the situation I really dont know what I would decide. Thats the beauty of life...... the unexpected.... you really dont know what you would decide until you are thrust into the situation and you have to actually MAKE that decision. Blindly speaking, I would chose to abort the pregnancy as I dont really feel like I am in a place in my life where it would be an intelligent decision to bring a child into my world, but Im NOT in that position so who knows!
I would support (and I have) a woman's decision to do whatever she feels right and I would do whatever I could to help a friend in need. I would NEVER pass judgement upon her decision to do whatever is right for her as long as it was HER decision. Now, Im not saying that you shouldnt take responsibility for your actions.... but sometimes precautions are taken and prevention methods are excercised and they fail.... its reality.
Furthermore, I dont particularly want to discuss the side regarding religion or whether or not being damned to hell or etc will occur based on this particular course of action. Im not a highly religious person and all religion is subjective to the persons beliefs so I prefer to believe that every situation has its circumstances. I am spiritual but do not engage in religious banter nor do I feel the right to defend my position or any other in the name of religion. Each person has their right to believe what they will. Faith is what we make of it and everyone is different and its not place to judge what will come of their soul based on their life choices.
But, thats just me!
I will just be blunt about it, since that is my personality anyway. I am Pro-Choice. I believe that a woman has the right to decide what occurs on and within her own body. Now, in saying this, I am not actually saying what I would do at this point in my life. As I am not married and honestly have never wanted children, I also understand that certain events occur in your life that totally affect and/or change your expected course of action, sometimes before you even realize it.
So, if I awoke tomorrow morning discovering that I was pregnant would I chose to abort it? Hmmm... I dont know. I can say (knowing that I am not pregnant) that my answer would probably instictively be yes, I would.... however, in the REALITY of the situation I really dont know what I would decide. Thats the beauty of life...... the unexpected.... you really dont know what you would decide until you are thrust into the situation and you have to actually MAKE that decision. Blindly speaking, I would chose to abort the pregnancy as I dont really feel like I am in a place in my life where it would be an intelligent decision to bring a child into my world, but Im NOT in that position so who knows!
I would support (and I have) a woman's decision to do whatever she feels right and I would do whatever I could to help a friend in need. I would NEVER pass judgement upon her decision to do whatever is right for her as long as it was HER decision. Now, Im not saying that you shouldnt take responsibility for your actions.... but sometimes precautions are taken and prevention methods are excercised and they fail.... its reality.
Furthermore, I dont particularly want to discuss the side regarding religion or whether or not being damned to hell or etc will occur based on this particular course of action. Im not a highly religious person and all religion is subjective to the persons beliefs so I prefer to believe that every situation has its circumstances. I am spiritual but do not engage in religious banter nor do I feel the right to defend my position or any other in the name of religion. Each person has their right to believe what they will. Faith is what we make of it and everyone is different and its not place to judge what will come of their soul based on their life choices.
But, thats just me!
Furthermore, I dont particularly want to discuss the side regarding religion or whether or not being damned to hell or etc will occur based on this particular course of action. Im not a highly religious person and all religion is subjective to the persons beliefs so I prefer to believe that every situation has its circumstances. I am spiritual but do not engage in religious banter nor do I feel the right to defend my position or any other in the name of religion. Each person has their right to believe what they will. Faith is what we make of it and everyone is different and its not place to judge what will come of their soul based on their life choices.
I respect this entire passage.
So, if I awoke tomorrow morning discovering that I was pregnant would I chose to abort it? Hmmm... I dont know. I can say (knowing that I am not pregnant) that my answer would probably instictively be yes, I would.... however, in the REALITY of the situation I really dont know what I would decide. Thats the beauty of life...... the unexpected.... you really dont know what you would decide until you are thrust into the situation and you have to actually MAKE that decision. Blindly speaking, I would chose to abort the pregnancy as I dont really feel like I am in a place in my life where it would be an intelligent decision to bring a child into my world, but Im NOT in that position so who knows!
You know LWWTBL, I can see where you are coming from.
In reality, if if some dude pregnanted me, I don't know what I'd do. I would be pretty angry with him. True, it would be my fault too but if he purposely slipped the condom off, then what—?
This has happened to a friend of mine. Her parents wouldn't let her have an abortion so now she's kinda of stuck. The boy is like 5 years old now but she wished she would have done things differently years ago. And that stupid guy thats the child's father ... well, she's basically stuck with him too.
I respect this entire passage.
So, if I awoke tomorrow morning discovering that I was pregnant would I chose to abort it? Hmmm... I dont know. I can say (knowing that I am not pregnant) that my answer would probably instictively be yes, I would.... however, in the REALITY of the situation I really dont know what I would decide. Thats the beauty of life...... the unexpected.... you really dont know what you would decide until you are thrust into the situation and you have to actually MAKE that decision. Blindly speaking, I would chose to abort the pregnancy as I dont really feel like I am in a place in my life where it would be an intelligent decision to bring a child into my world, but Im NOT in that position so who knows!
You know LWWTBL, I can see where you are coming from.
In reality, if if some dude pregnanted me, I don't know what I'd do. I would be pretty angry with him. True, it would be my fault too but if he purposely slipped the condom off, then what—?
This has happened to a friend of mine. Her parents wouldn't let her have an abortion so now she's kinda of stuck. The boy is like 5 years old now but she wished she would have done things differently years ago. And that stupid guy thats the child's father ... well, she's basically stuck with him too.
Yeah Cappy.... there are just so many extinuating circumstances for every situation. I can say speaking from experience that I have lived my life believing I would react a certain way about something and was steadfast in what my course of action might would be only to find out that when I was actually put into the situation, I reacted completely differently then I suspected I would. That is why I NEVER say NEVER about anything! As it wasnt anything quite as compelling as your topic suggests, it WAS still a life altering issue. As a result, I ended up learning that I wasnt who I thought I was inside and had to step back and take a look at myself in a totally different light and reacquaint myself with who I had become. It happens!!! Thats whats so intriguing about life in general. You never know what it has in store for you.
I consider myself christian and I'm still pro-choice, so for me religion has nothing to do with it. Yes, most christians will argue that it's murder, and it's sin. I'm not most christians I guess??
While I can almost certainly say I would probably never in my life choose to kill my unborn child...that's not my choice to make for other women. & I choose not to judge those whose shoes I'm not standing in. I don't feel like it's my place, in any way, to judge whether or not they made an "immoral," irresponsible, or selfish decision in choosing abortion. Obviously, my wish would be that they choose adoption, but if I'm being honest - that's not usually a fairytale ending either.
The reality is, there are some situations in which it's better off the child was not born. Not only in cases in which the mother's and/or the child's health is at risk, or in cases of rape or incest, but also in general there are some really slimy people in the world and it's probably best that an innocent child isn't brought into that kind of hell - as it will end up abused, abandoned, or dead anyways.
Plus, rather abortion is legal or not, women are still going to find a way to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. Atleast if it's legal they can have it done safely by a professional, rather than with a rusty coat hanger. My grandmother (who is seriously a saint) was a public health nurse for 40-some years...she's one of the most religious women I know, and she's also pro-choice. She knows first-hand what happens when women take their decision into their own hands.
While I can almost certainly say I would probably never in my life choose to kill my unborn child...that's not my choice to make for other women. & I choose not to judge those whose shoes I'm not standing in. I don't feel like it's my place, in any way, to judge whether or not they made an "immoral," irresponsible, or selfish decision in choosing abortion. Obviously, my wish would be that they choose adoption, but if I'm being honest - that's not usually a fairytale ending either.
The reality is, there are some situations in which it's better off the child was not born. Not only in cases in which the mother's and/or the child's health is at risk, or in cases of rape or incest, but also in general there are some really slimy people in the world and it's probably best that an innocent child isn't brought into that kind of hell - as it will end up abused, abandoned, or dead anyways.
Plus, rather abortion is legal or not, women are still going to find a way to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. Atleast if it's legal they can have it done safely by a professional, rather than with a rusty coat hanger. My grandmother (who is seriously a saint) was a public health nurse for 40-some years...she's one of the most religious women I know, and she's also pro-choice. She knows first-hand what happens when women take their decision into their own hands.
@capysweetie, I'm not a believer myself, but who's to say anything about anything in the name of God? Every man believes in his own pathetic little version of God which shows to tell you that there is no real God but the one we created ourselves. The religion that's been sold to us is just a projection of other people's ideas of right and wrong.
No, I truly detest morals and values based on religion. They don't say anyting about a human being other than he's afraid of God. My morals and values are based on the purpose of serving humanity good and not on fear. Every man is entitled to their own faith, and with that faith to keep their f*kking mouths shut and leave others alone.
No, I truly detest morals and values based on religion. They don't say anyting about a human being other than he's afraid of God. My morals and values are based on the purpose of serving humanity good and not on fear. Every man is entitled to their own faith, and with that faith to keep their f*kking mouths shut and leave others alone.
...and if this God is not okay with me being good for the sake of goodness and not because I'm a believer then he can kiss my butt. God strikes me as being very arrogant. He must be a Leo because only a Leo would create a whole world for the soul purpose of ruling it.
Wow...talk about opening up the flood gates...
O.k...here's my view on this subject. I believe that you can be pro-choice for everyone else and pro-life for yourself. I do not believe imposing your personal views on someone else is what this country was built on. I cherrish my freedom to not only choose something like abortion, but be able to choose really anything in this life. I do not want the govt., church or anyone else saying what I can and cannot do with my body or my life.
Now, would I do it myself? No. But, it's not my place to judge others for what they do in their own lives. We do not know their circumstances. I also cannot say I wouldn't have done it if I was 16 and prego.
I've personally witnessed it when someone was very against abortion ended up having to do something they never thought they would. It's not our place to judge...if you ask me.
Here we go!
O.k...here's my view on this subject. I believe that you can be pro-choice for everyone else and pro-life for yourself. I do not believe imposing your personal views on someone else is what this country was built on. I cherrish my freedom to not only choose something like abortion, but be able to choose really anything in this life. I do not want the govt., church or anyone else saying what I can and cannot do with my body or my life.
Now, would I do it myself? No. But, it's not my place to judge others for what they do in their own lives. We do not know their circumstances. I also cannot say I wouldn't have done it if I was 16 and prego.
I've personally witnessed it when someone was very against abortion ended up having to do something they never thought they would. It's not our place to judge...if you ask me.
Here we go!
To answer your question as to why Christian's think people are going to hell for having abortions ... it is because most Christians do not know the history of their own Church. Christ was fairly unconcerned with human sexuality. He never made any statements about homosexuality, masturbation, fornication, abortion, artifical insemination, premarital sex, birth control etc. What he did teach was compassion, understanding, forgiveness not just to each other but to everyone. His whole message has been buried in the maze of political motivations of those who came after.
One of the best books I have ever read on this subject is Peter Vardy's The Puzzle of Sex. I actually did a lot of research into abortion policies in antiquity a few years ago but can't remember most of it. lol. I think almost all middle-Eastern religions of the time (which is what Christianity is) agreed that human life did not begin until something like 40 days after conception? I think that was the number. Oddly, I believe Islam had the most liberal policies. The biggest sin regarding abortion, from what I remember and I believe it was Greek law, was not so much the ending of life but depriving a man of a heir. Interesting, when you look at the whole situation from that point of view, isn't it?
As you probably, I am pro-choice. Personally, I think it is a woman's divine right. Only a woman knows what is right for her and her child. I sometimes think the covenant was between God and Woman not God and man since s/he blessed woman with the ability to bring life into being or deny it. I personally suspect that this why women's sexuality is of so much interest, hence control. When you think back over human sexual history, the Sacred Prostitutes where men would go to worship the Goddess within women sexually, you realize how much the power of woman as a sacred sexual being has been lost. I am not saying men are not sexual sacred beings, they most certainly are! I think it is a shame for both sexes that some of this has been lost.
Women generally aren't willy-nilly about the decision either way. People always think abortion is a modern day phenomenon but it is not. Women have been having herbal abortions since ... at least antiquity.
Would I have an abortion? I don't know. Would I keep an unwanted pregnancy? I don't know. But I wouldn't do much apologizing about it either way. 😉
One of the best books I have ever read on this subject is Peter Vardy's The Puzzle of Sex. I actually did a lot of research into abortion policies in antiquity a few years ago but can't remember most of it. lol. I think almost all middle-Eastern religions of the time (which is what Christianity is) agreed that human life did not begin until something like 40 days after conception? I think that was the number. Oddly, I believe Islam had the most liberal policies. The biggest sin regarding abortion, from what I remember and I believe it was Greek law, was not so much the ending of life but depriving a man of a heir. Interesting, when you look at the whole situation from that point of view, isn't it?
As you probably, I am pro-choice. Personally, I think it is a woman's divine right. Only a woman knows what is right for her and her child. I sometimes think the covenant was between God and Woman not God and man since s/he blessed woman with the ability to bring life into being or deny it. I personally suspect that this why women's sexuality is of so much interest, hence control. When you think back over human sexual history, the Sacred Prostitutes where men would go to worship the Goddess within women sexually, you realize how much the power of woman as a sacred sexual being has been lost. I am not saying men are not sexual sacred beings, they most certainly are! I think it is a shame for both sexes that some of this has been lost.
Women generally aren't willy-nilly about the decision either way. People always think abortion is a modern day phenomenon but it is not. Women have been having herbal abortions since ... at least antiquity.
Would I have an abortion? I don't know. Would I keep an unwanted pregnancy? I don't know. But I wouldn't do much apologizing about it either way. 😉
How enlightening sparrow...I concur!
CS"
"Why is there so much angst towards women who are Pro-Choice and a preferance to Pro-Life thinking?"
Well I am a recovering Christian. Lol and I can attest why people would be angery over Pro-choice supporters, but I strongly disagree that it should have anything to do with religion. IMO abortion is a humantarian issue not a religious one. And I try to find a way of voicing my opinion without resorting to the creed of God or the bible as my foundation.
To date I am unapologetically pro life, but I do understand the otherside. I understand why women feel particularly more invested in this struggle than men, because it is their bodies that deals with the consequences of pregnancy, labor and abortions not ours, which makes this particularly a tricky debate to participate in. However there is one underlying point that needs to be raised about abortion. Is it ethical?
CS
"Seriously, I am very spiritual but I think thats a bit over-the-top. In the scheme of things ...yu can go to hell over many things, not just whether or not you choose to have a child. And there are many things you can do to get your one-way ticket to heaven if thats where you want to go ^_^."
Good point, and that is why IMO the Christian position is the worst one, because it predetermines that everyone believes in a heaven or heal. Hence what if you don't? If I were an atheist would this render abortions okay?
That's why I feel that non religious pro lifers must find a away to bring the debate back into reality instead of fantasy.
"Why is there so much angst towards women who are Pro-Choice and a preferance to Pro-Life thinking?"
Well I am a recovering Christian. Lol and I can attest why people would be angery over Pro-choice supporters, but I strongly disagree that it should have anything to do with religion. IMO abortion is a humantarian issue not a religious one. And I try to find a way of voicing my opinion without resorting to the creed of God or the bible as my foundation.
To date I am unapologetically pro life, but I do understand the otherside. I understand why women feel particularly more invested in this struggle than men, because it is their bodies that deals with the consequences of pregnancy, labor and abortions not ours, which makes this particularly a tricky debate to participate in. However there is one underlying point that needs to be raised about abortion. Is it ethical?
CS
"Seriously, I am very spiritual but I think thats a bit over-the-top. In the scheme of things ...yu can go to hell over many things, not just whether or not you choose to have a child. And there are many things you can do to get your one-way ticket to heaven if thats where you want to go ^_^."
Good point, and that is why IMO the Christian position is the worst one, because it predetermines that everyone believes in a heaven or heal. Hence what if you don't? If I were an atheist would this render abortions okay?
That's why I feel that non religious pro lifers must find a away to bring the debate back into reality instead of fantasy.
Posted by No1delete2
FA: Christ was fairly unconcerned with human sexuality.
No, not exactly. Look at His teachings with the Samaritan woman at the well...
Also, because He claimed: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5: 17), we can safely assume that the Laws Of Moses in The Torah are a GIVEN for him, and those laws have quite a bit to say about sexuality & morality -- as you can read for yourself in Leviticus...
Good point.
Posted by little_sparrow
To answer your question as to why Christian's think people are going to hell for having abortions ... it is because most Christians do not know the history of their own Church. Christ was fairly unconcerned with human sexuality. He never made any statements about homosexuality, masturbation, fornication, abortion, artifical insemination, premarital sex, birth control etc. What he did teach was compassion, understanding, forgiveness not just to each other but to everyone. His whole message has been buried in the maze of political motivations of those who came after.
♥
* Look at His teachings with the Samaritan woman at the well...
Is that the woman who was living with different men? Sorry, it has been YEARS since I read the Bible. It kind of proves my point. Given the amount of fretting about sex that Christians do, Jesus was pretty unconcerned. It was hardly the focus of his teachings.
So it still stands that most of what Christians believe about sex was written by the Church NOT by Christ. Aristotle, Aquinas, Agustine, yadda yadda are the ones responsible for Christian sexual ethics not Christ.
{The quote from Matthew is pretty much useless since it was written so long after the man died. Plus, I am uncertain of the context.} For me, this is kind of a moot point since I don't believe Jesus ever existed and believe it is a woman's divine right to abort her child.
Is it ethical? Yes. Abortion it is ethical.
I think it is interesting that people are more concerned about a life that has not begun yet, than the life that is actually effected. Personally, I think it would be way more traumatic to undergo an unwanted pregnancy and birth, than actually have an abortion. It would be a different type of rape.
I really don't see how forcing anyone to have a child they don't want is ethical. Forcing a young 11 yr old girl to undergo childbirth or a post-menopausal woman in her 60s or anyone to give birth to a child they don't want is just wrong. It isn't like they give birth and the baby just vanishes into thin air even in the very unlikely circumstance that it will be adopted, the child has to then deal with all this unnecessary baggage of being unwanted by its birth parent and many adopted people seem to be uncertain of whom they are, hence appearing as an adult wanting a relationship with the birth mother.
I could easily argue that having your own children with all these unwanted children out there would be unethical. Where is all the social support for unwed mom's most of whom end up in poverty? Why force women to have children and offer no social support for them? Is it because at the root is a need to punish women for having a sexdrive? I don't know.
Sometimes abortion is the right choice.
Here is a very interesting article that might help you better understand the ethics involved from a pro-choice point of view. It isn't an ethical debate about when life begins. It is about the very real lives that are affected by these decisions.
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=283931&p=1
Is that the woman who was living with different men? Sorry, it has been YEARS since I read the Bible. It kind of proves my point. Given the amount of fretting about sex that Christians do, Jesus was pretty unconcerned. It was hardly the focus of his teachings.
So it still stands that most of what Christians believe about sex was written by the Church NOT by Christ. Aristotle, Aquinas, Agustine, yadda yadda are the ones responsible for Christian sexual ethics not Christ.
{The quote from Matthew is pretty much useless since it was written so long after the man died. Plus, I am uncertain of the context.} For me, this is kind of a moot point since I don't believe Jesus ever existed and believe it is a woman's divine right to abort her child.
Is it ethical? Yes. Abortion it is ethical.
I think it is interesting that people are more concerned about a life that has not begun yet, than the life that is actually effected. Personally, I think it would be way more traumatic to undergo an unwanted pregnancy and birth, than actually have an abortion. It would be a different type of rape.
I really don't see how forcing anyone to have a child they don't want is ethical. Forcing a young 11 yr old girl to undergo childbirth or a post-menopausal woman in her 60s or anyone to give birth to a child they don't want is just wrong. It isn't like they give birth and the baby just vanishes into thin air even in the very unlikely circumstance that it will be adopted, the child has to then deal with all this unnecessary baggage of being unwanted by its birth parent and many adopted people seem to be uncertain of whom they are, hence appearing as an adult wanting a relationship with the birth mother.
I could easily argue that having your own children with all these unwanted children out there would be unethical. Where is all the social support for unwed mom's most of whom end up in poverty? Why force women to have children and offer no social support for them? Is it because at the root is a need to punish women for having a sexdrive? I don't know.
Sometimes abortion is the right choice.
Here is a very interesting article that might help you better understand the ethics involved from a pro-choice point of view. It isn't an ethical debate about when life begins. It is about the very real lives that are affected by these decisions.
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=283931&p=1
Little_Sparrow as a former Christian who has studied the bible quite extensively, your reasoning of Jesus is 100% false. The fact remains Jesus would not have supported abortions as it would go against the law's of Moses. As one person already pointed out, stated in the bible, Jesus did not come to change, defect, or rewrite the law, he came to affirm it. I think it's extremely important that if you are going to use a biblical argument, first understand what is ACTUALLY being said at verbatim. If you are not religious or not familiar with scripture. Avoid it altogether. Otherwise a theist will rebuke your assumptions everytime and it will only hinder not help your cause.
I respect your stance on arbtions but I heard all these objections before and most of it isn't really applicable to reality. Here is what I mean.
You said, that abortions is ethical. I would not take this stance because you would be hard press to convey a logical and convincing argument that taking a life is ever ethical. Taking a life is maybe NECESSARY but it is never ethical. I don't consider slaughtering pigs for food ethical but it is definately necessary for my self preservation. If you are a vegan, well you will disagree. I don't consider killing for country ethical but it may be neccessary for my liberty. Also I don't consider killing for self defence ethical but once again it is necessary for life. Hence for this reason, abortion is not ethical, however you can argue that it is necessary. And that is a rational assertion.
Now let's speak about the stakes in abortion. The real argument of abortion is what is the defination and value of human life. This is where the two camps will disagree.
Since all active cells are alive. A zygote (a fertilized cell) is also alive. To assert that life itself begins at birth is obviously incorrect. Life doesn't begin but continues on from generation to generation for a dead thing cannot beget a living thing. That zygote by medical defination is ALIVE and living, although it resmbles little of a humabeing, hence which leads to the next argument, is it human?
Via DNA it is 100% human, but can we consider a zygote a humanbeing? IMO the answer is yes. At this juncture the zygote like all individual life forms has one object incoded in it's DNA, the desire to maintain it's genetic survival. Hence it will replicate and eventually become a fetus, into a baby, a baby into an adult.
I respect your stance on arbtions but I heard all these objections before and most of it isn't really applicable to reality. Here is what I mean.
You said, that abortions is ethical. I would not take this stance because you would be hard press to convey a logical and convincing argument that taking a life is ever ethical. Taking a life is maybe NECESSARY but it is never ethical. I don't consider slaughtering pigs for food ethical but it is definately necessary for my self preservation. If you are a vegan, well you will disagree. I don't consider killing for country ethical but it may be neccessary for my liberty. Also I don't consider killing for self defence ethical but once again it is necessary for life. Hence for this reason, abortion is not ethical, however you can argue that it is necessary. And that is a rational assertion.
Now let's speak about the stakes in abortion. The real argument of abortion is what is the defination and value of human life. This is where the two camps will disagree.
Since all active cells are alive. A zygote (a fertilized cell) is also alive. To assert that life itself begins at birth is obviously incorrect. Life doesn't begin but continues on from generation to generation for a dead thing cannot beget a living thing. That zygote by medical defination is ALIVE and living, although it resmbles little of a humabeing, hence which leads to the next argument, is it human?
Via DNA it is 100% human, but can we consider a zygote a humanbeing? IMO the answer is yes. At this juncture the zygote like all individual life forms has one object incoded in it's DNA, the desire to maintain it's genetic survival. Hence it will replicate and eventually become a fetus, into a baby, a baby into an adult.
Hence where do you draw the line of humanity? IMO you don't draw it the second you can see it's face, the instant you can hear it's cry, or the moment you can touch it. You draw it all the way to the beginning. The moment of conception because this is where everyone's life journey actually begins.
Now the second major myth the pro choice camp will argue. "This is a woman's only issue becaue it is her body and what she does with her body is her right". In all causes concering a woman's body, I agree with this notion a 100% .
HOWEVER a fetus, is not part of a woman's body, it is 100% separate from the woman. It just so happens to be in a very peculiar situation where unfortunatelly most mammels and some reptiles find themselves in. They're gestation starts inside another living thing. BUT nothing in the womb belongs to the mother. The placenta, the embilical cord, the embryonic sac. It all belongs to the baby for it all came from the same zygote cell.
When you get an abortion all these elements of the babies life is ALSO REMOVED for your body will not tolerate any foreign cells, and baby is a cluster of foreign cells. Hence a baby is not part of a woman's body it is an EXTENSION of a woman's anatomy.
So why abortion? If removing the matter that grows inside you was all a woman cared to do, she could wait just long enough to give this baby a fighting chance to survive. But no, this isn't what occures. A baby's life is destroyed for the sake of the lack sentimental feelings a woman has for this life.
My question for women is what about Postpartum depression? What about women who kill their children after birth? Is this attitude any different from a woman who is willing to have a fetus destroyed? No. It is the exact same thing. The only difference the woman who get's an abortion hides behind a doctor willing to do it for her. The same idea is upheld. This "thing" (a fetus a baby) is anwanted, I don't love it. Hence out of site out of mind.
And the sad fact a million abortions have occure every year world wide, and some of those were partial birth abortions and this is simply a human tragedy.
Now the second major myth the pro choice camp will argue. "This is a woman's only issue becaue it is her body and what she does with her body is her right". In all causes concering a woman's body, I agree with this notion a 100% .
HOWEVER a fetus, is not part of a woman's body, it is 100% separate from the woman. It just so happens to be in a very peculiar situation where unfortunatelly most mammels and some reptiles find themselves in. They're gestation starts inside another living thing. BUT nothing in the womb belongs to the mother. The placenta, the embilical cord, the embryonic sac. It all belongs to the baby for it all came from the same zygote cell.
When you get an abortion all these elements of the babies life is ALSO REMOVED for your body will not tolerate any foreign cells, and baby is a cluster of foreign cells. Hence a baby is not part of a woman's body it is an EXTENSION of a woman's anatomy.
So why abortion? If removing the matter that grows inside you was all a woman cared to do, she could wait just long enough to give this baby a fighting chance to survive. But no, this isn't what occures. A baby's life is destroyed for the sake of the lack sentimental feelings a woman has for this life.
My question for women is what about Postpartum depression? What about women who kill their children after birth? Is this attitude any different from a woman who is willing to have a fetus destroyed? No. It is the exact same thing. The only difference the woman who get's an abortion hides behind a doctor willing to do it for her. The same idea is upheld. This "thing" (a fetus a baby) is anwanted, I don't love it. Hence out of site out of mind.
And the sad fact a million abortions have occure every year world wide, and some of those were partial birth abortions and this is simply a human tragedy.
i love reading all of Sparrow's posts. she communicates her thoughts well
i also like how the ads on DXP adapt to the topic of the thread. i see ads for calculating your due date and links to pregnancy 101 lol
hmmm, I just checked in to see how much trouble I've gotten myself into concerning this topic 😉 I see that people have conducted themselves properly -- I won't say "I've glad everyone behaved like adults" because there are some adults that act worse than children when they are dealing with something like this.
Just because of my background, this has been something thats plagued me for a while. However, now that I am officially in my mid-twenties, I think I should make a stand on a few things in life that I've been kinda shaky on. I would hate to go into my 30s still saying 'Oh, I don't know about that, I'm just not sure what to believe'. You know what I mean? I heard a wise quote a while ago -- like when I was in high school -- I can't remember who said it but its states: If you don't stand for something, then you will fall for anything. I should google this quote and see who said it! I want to know because now that I'm getting older it makes a lot of sense.
Plus, as a woman, I feel as if there are people who believe that if we don't follow and 'do as we are told', then we are breaking some kind of rule :/
Like, with both younger and older women, they have these clubs and groups they are apart of and its like they have to 'march to the beat of the same drum as everybody else'. Why is that? And if we don't 'march to that beat' theres something wrong with us. Why is that? Even in family, if you don't conform you are looked upon as being a bad person ... why— I don't get it and maybe now, I don't want to.
I feel the older I get, the more liberated I feel -- I was raised very conventional and they say you are suppose to be more conservative the older you get, well, it seems to be the opposite with me.
Personally, as far as abortion goes (Pro-life, anti-abortion, whatever the hell, its all the same thing, just different word play), I tend to believe that my body ... is my business. That being said, I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control -- thats just terrible for the body. However, I do believe that its my choice to do as a please with the only thing that I really have control over ... which is my body. Yes, the 'mind' has a role in all of this too but thats a totally different subject.
Nothing else really belongs to us but our bodies -- we can all claim what we believe is ours but in reality the only thing that we own and the only thing we are entitled to is what we all use to get around everyday. Everything else is meaningless if you can't use at least some of your senses -- I know some are not born with all senses.
The body is what a person has full control over and ownership of and there it should be there choice what goes on with it.
Plus, as a woman, I feel as if there are people who believe that if we don't follow and 'do as we are told', then we are breaking some kind of rule :/
Like, with both younger and older women, they have these clubs and groups they are apart of and its like they have to 'march to the beat of the same drum as everybody else'. Why is that? And if we don't 'march to that beat' theres something wrong with us. Why is that? Even in family, if you don't conform you are looked upon as being a bad person ... why— I don't get it and maybe now, I don't want to.
I feel the older I get, the more liberated I feel -- I was raised very conventional and they say you are suppose to be more conservative the older you get, well, it seems to be the opposite with me.
Personally, as far as abortion goes (Pro-life, anti-abortion, whatever the hell, its all the same thing, just different word play), I tend to believe that my body ... is my business. That being said, I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control -- thats just terrible for the body. However, I do believe that its my choice to do as a please with the only thing that I really have control over ... which is my body. Yes, the 'mind' has a role in all of this too but thats a totally different subject.
Nothing else really belongs to us but our bodies -- we can all claim what we believe is ours but in reality the only thing that we own and the only thing we are entitled to is what we all use to get around everyday. Everything else is meaningless if you can't use at least some of your senses -- I know some are not born with all senses.
The body is what a person has full control over and ownership of and there it should be there choice what goes on with it.
So I am indeed Pro-Choice.
It took some soul-searching to come to this conclusion but this is my story and I'm sticking to it. I don't have anything against people who feel differently but I do have a problem with those who feel its okay to "HATE" those who aren't Pro-Life, its like a totally different reaction.
I see it this way, I only have one body and its no one's concern what I should do with it.
As far as whether or not abortion is murder is up for debate really. The whole "you are killing a baby" thing stirs me for some reason. I often wonder if those same people who feel that I've killed my own child by aborting it ... would feel the same way about an animal who was shot by a hunter for sport. Mind you , I said for 'sport' not food. Or would they feel that way about animals who get hit by cars and are a bloody mess all over the roads -- is the same passion invoked on them? Taking a life is taking a life, right?
The jury is still out with me on the whole murder thing. I just really see it that way. If murder were the case, than every time a woman passes an egg during certain times in a month in murder too.
I don't know, the older I get, the harder it is for me to understand that.
This is quite funny really, when I was younger, I was Pro-Life :/
It took some soul-searching to come to this conclusion but this is my story and I'm sticking to it. I don't have anything against people who feel differently but I do have a problem with those who feel its okay to "HATE" those who aren't Pro-Life, its like a totally different reaction.
I see it this way, I only have one body and its no one's concern what I should do with it.
As far as whether or not abortion is murder is up for debate really. The whole "you are killing a baby" thing stirs me for some reason. I often wonder if those same people who feel that I've killed my own child by aborting it ... would feel the same way about an animal who was shot by a hunter for sport. Mind you , I said for 'sport' not food. Or would they feel that way about animals who get hit by cars and are a bloody mess all over the roads -- is the same passion invoked on them? Taking a life is taking a life, right?
The jury is still out with me on the whole murder thing. I just really see it that way. If murder were the case, than every time a woman passes an egg during certain times in a month in murder too.
I don't know, the older I get, the harder it is for me to understand that.
This is quite funny really, when I was younger, I was Pro-Life :/
My father was born to a 15 year old and given up for adoption. My aunts and uncles are all adopted too due to my (adoptive) grandmother not being able to have children. I have 6 aunts and uncles all adopted. A couple are "drug" babies. One aunt is Korean. One uncle is black.
My mother and father had me their junoir year in high school. I was 2 when they married (and their flower girl at their wedding) LOL
My Taurus sister was born to my VERY mentally disabled aunt. She's hardly fit to take care of herself let alone a baby. My sis came to be with us when she was just 2 weeks old and my parents adopted her. She is one of the top students in her class and looking into getting a full ride at Iowa State due to her studies. She is one of the smartest people I know. Being that she is my little sister and is a royal pain in the ass I still love her and I'm glad that she wasn't aborted due to my aunts mental disablities as many suggested.
I see abortion not as a religious stance but as a personal responsibilty. Now that gays are allowed to marry in some states they may want children and can't have them. Adoption is the only choice. I really dislike Rosy O'Donald but she is big on gays and adoption which I really really admire.
To me it's very simple.... you don't risk having a baby don't have sex or take the precautions to prevent it. There is always the risk of getting preggo if you are having sex.... no surprise to it.
So yes I am Pro life. I've seen the results many times over of adoption. The only time I've ever seen women abort was for selfish reasons. I have no respect for it. I'm not going to apologize for it because I've seen SO many adoptions go SO well for everyone involved. It's a life.....
My mother and father had me their junoir year in high school. I was 2 when they married (and their flower girl at their wedding) LOL
My Taurus sister was born to my VERY mentally disabled aunt. She's hardly fit to take care of herself let alone a baby. My sis came to be with us when she was just 2 weeks old and my parents adopted her. She is one of the top students in her class and looking into getting a full ride at Iowa State due to her studies. She is one of the smartest people I know. Being that she is my little sister and is a royal pain in the ass I still love her and I'm glad that she wasn't aborted due to my aunts mental disablities as many suggested.
I see abortion not as a religious stance but as a personal responsibilty. Now that gays are allowed to marry in some states they may want children and can't have them. Adoption is the only choice. I really dislike Rosy O'Donald but she is big on gays and adoption which I really really admire.
To me it's very simple.... you don't risk having a baby don't have sex or take the precautions to prevent it. There is always the risk of getting preggo if you are having sex.... no surprise to it.
So yes I am Pro life. I've seen the results many times over of adoption. The only time I've ever seen women abort was for selfish reasons. I have no respect for it. I'm not going to apologize for it because I've seen SO many adoptions go SO well for everyone involved. It's a life.....
Eric: "A baby's life is destroyed for the sake of the lack sentimental feelings a woman has for this life."
Men shouldn't be allowed to speak on behalf of women, because they have no clue.
A nineteen year-old dude who casually fucks a girl, leaves her pregnant, where she has to devote the rest of her life fending for a child born from a "fuck" ...... has no right to talk about sentimental feelings the woman now must possess, while he runs off in the distant, not having this same obligation in the provision of life.
Men shouldn't be allowed to speak on behalf of women, because they have no clue.
A nineteen year-old dude who casually fucks a girl, leaves her pregnant, where she has to devote the rest of her life fending for a child born from a "fuck" ...... has no right to talk about sentimental feelings the woman now must possess, while he runs off in the distant, not having this same obligation in the provision of life.
Posted by cappysweetie
hmmm, I just checked in to see how much trouble I've gotten myself into concerning this topic 😉 I see that people have conducted themselves properly -- I won't say "I've glad everyone behaved like adults" because there are some adults that act worse than children when they are dealing with something like this.
You're the only child here ... you can always ban yourself from speaking.
I'd be willing to wager that a vast majority of these pregnancies happened because the dude convinced the girl he loved her, then bounced on her when she fell pregnant .... so, you can go fuck yourself Eric, when you think you have a right to speak of how a woman must regard the life of this child that the guy couldn't care a less about, this is why he left.
And in this group of women .. I'd also be willing to wager that the rate of abortion would decrease dramatically .... IF ..... the dude wasn't a whore, and actually possessed the balls to step up to the plate and care for this life.
I'm not a pro-choicer, or a pro-lifer ... I'm a quality of lifer.
One day of a wonderful, beautiful life ... is worth more than 20 years of despair.
It's not about how long life happens .... it's about what is good in the life, no matter the duration.
If a woman cannot provide quality for the child, then it shouldn't be born.
I'm not a pro-choicer, or a pro-lifer ... I'm a quality of lifer.
One day of a wonderful, beautiful life ... is worth more than 20 years of despair.
It's not about how long life happens .... it's about what is good in the life, no matter the duration.
If a woman cannot provide quality for the child, then it shouldn't be born.
To be born is nothing but biology, any/all species including vegetation can do propagate .. there is nothing special in that.
What is special is kind of life it becomes.
The green peeks of the daffodils sticking out of the ground in early spring will bring you much more joy and pleasure than the menacing dandilions. In turn for the love given to you by means of joy in viewing and living with the beautiful flower in your garden, you will give it quality as long as it is alive, meaning ... plenty of water, plenty of love, removal of weeds daily.
Same as with people, or pets or with any life.
If you (3rd person for those who can't understand otherwise) got knocked up by a guy to whom you loved and you thought he loved you and wanted you and you thought you two were happy together .... then he left you when you got pregnant ..
... are you going to water your precisios flower growing daily, are you going to cherish and love this and rejoice in it's glory as it grows ...
... or, are you giong to be resentful? Are you going to look at this child every fucking day of your life and think about how deeply wounded you were by this man leaving you and in knowing that the only fucking reason he left you was because of the child.
It's the child's fault ... if it hadn't of happened then he would still be there, you would tell yourself.
People who have abortions or contemplate this .... it's an unwanted pregnancy, right?
Why is it unwanted?
Weren't you fucking somebody you loved?
I'd be willing to wager that the vast majority of unwanted children stems from the man not wanting it, for all women want children, we're born with a gene that makes it an instinct to procreate, to give birth over and over FOR the man. If the man doesn't want it, then she doesn't want it.
It's that simple ... if the man wants it, then she wants it .. so any man who thinks he has any right in speaking about the sensitivities of how an unwanted should be regarded by the woman can go fuck himself ... because the ONLY reason she doesn't want it is because ....
.... HE ... HE .. doesn't want it, or her because HE knocked her up.
Have you ever seen what happens to an unwanted child?
I have .. they are abused ..... sometimes, severally. Usually, it's in the form of neglect because the woman resents the child.
What is special is kind of life it becomes.
The green peeks of the daffodils sticking out of the ground in early spring will bring you much more joy and pleasure than the menacing dandilions. In turn for the love given to you by means of joy in viewing and living with the beautiful flower in your garden, you will give it quality as long as it is alive, meaning ... plenty of water, plenty of love, removal of weeds daily.
Same as with people, or pets or with any life.
If you (3rd person for those who can't understand otherwise) got knocked up by a guy to whom you loved and you thought he loved you and wanted you and you thought you two were happy together .... then he left you when you got pregnant ..
... are you going to water your precisios flower growing daily, are you going to cherish and love this and rejoice in it's glory as it grows ...
... or, are you giong to be resentful? Are you going to look at this child every fucking day of your life and think about how deeply wounded you were by this man leaving you and in knowing that the only fucking reason he left you was because of the child.
It's the child's fault ... if it hadn't of happened then he would still be there, you would tell yourself.
People who have abortions or contemplate this .... it's an unwanted pregnancy, right?
Why is it unwanted?
Weren't you fucking somebody you loved?
I'd be willing to wager that the vast majority of unwanted children stems from the man not wanting it, for all women want children, we're born with a gene that makes it an instinct to procreate, to give birth over and over FOR the man. If the man doesn't want it, then she doesn't want it.
It's that simple ... if the man wants it, then she wants it .. so any man who thinks he has any right in speaking about the sensitivities of how an unwanted should be regarded by the woman can go fuck himself ... because the ONLY reason she doesn't want it is because ....
.... HE ... HE .. doesn't want it, or her because HE knocked her up.
Have you ever seen what happens to an unwanted child?
I have .. they are abused ..... sometimes, severally. Usually, it's in the form of neglect because the woman resents the child.
I remember a special I saw, well, it was just a clip from the special, and Dr. Ruth was exiting a building and there were a bunch of abortion protestors outside, waving signs and as soon as they saw here they ran to her and begged ...
"Dr Ruth, won't you join our crusade"
She told them .... when every single one of you adopt into your life to love fully an unwanted child .. then I will join you. Until then, get out of my way, you are a hypocrite.
This caused me to go on my own little mission ..... when I see abortion protestors, I will stop and ask them how many abused/neglected children they have adopted into their home .. and as of yet, I haven't found a single one of the protestors who has the heart to actually love inside of their own home and hearts, an abused/neglected child.
The bottom line ...... people want to bitch about abortions because it's against their principals ...... while leaving all those children out there in the hands of abusive parents who are molesting, beating and starving those kids ..... who SHOULD have aborted the child.
"Dr Ruth, won't you join our crusade"
She told them .... when every single one of you adopt into your life to love fully an unwanted child .. then I will join you. Until then, get out of my way, you are a hypocrite.
This caused me to go on my own little mission ..... when I see abortion protestors, I will stop and ask them how many abused/neglected children they have adopted into their home .. and as of yet, I haven't found a single one of the protestors who has the heart to actually love inside of their own home and hearts, an abused/neglected child.
The bottom line ...... people want to bitch about abortions because it's against their principals ...... while leaving all those children out there in the hands of abusive parents who are molesting, beating and starving those kids ..... who SHOULD have aborted the child.
"She told them .... when every single one of you adopt into your life to love fully an unwanted child .. then I will join you. Until then, get out of my way, you are a hypocrite."
I couldn't have said it better myself. It's also remarkable too that within the womb, the child is the most "precious" gift in the world, but outside of the "womb" certain religious and political parties could care less about the child and it's (oftentimes) young mother. No money; no support; no comment. And anybody who thinks that a child being brought up in the welfare system, foster care system, or any other type of situation like this is living a "charmed life" is completely wrong. I've volunteered for foster care programs and welfare programs before, and I have SEEN these children first hand. Neglected, abused, molested - they are being punished "EVERY" single day of their life because of the actions of two other people. Older children in the foster care system are "throw away kids." Nobody wants them, so they languish in that system until they become emancipated or are old enough to be on their own, and then what? A lot of these children don't know what a stable household or life is - they haven't been provided any tools to cope in society, so then what happens? Some of them turn to drugs/crime/prostitution, etc, and the same people who were up in arms about the "life" while it was in the womb, suddenly take interest and want to see these prior children (but now young adults) be punished and go to jail. Hell, don't you think their life has been punishment enough. Are there some children who were in foster care who have incredible lives when they grow up? Yep, but it's the exception, and not the rule. Also, this is NOT to say that all crimes are committed by children/people of foster care, etc, it's just to say that some do go down this path.
I couldn't have said it better myself. It's also remarkable too that within the womb, the child is the most "precious" gift in the world, but outside of the "womb" certain religious and political parties could care less about the child and it's (oftentimes) young mother. No money; no support; no comment. And anybody who thinks that a child being brought up in the welfare system, foster care system, or any other type of situation like this is living a "charmed life" is completely wrong. I've volunteered for foster care programs and welfare programs before, and I have SEEN these children first hand. Neglected, abused, molested - they are being punished "EVERY" single day of their life because of the actions of two other people. Older children in the foster care system are "throw away kids." Nobody wants them, so they languish in that system until they become emancipated or are old enough to be on their own, and then what? A lot of these children don't know what a stable household or life is - they haven't been provided any tools to cope in society, so then what happens? Some of them turn to drugs/crime/prostitution, etc, and the same people who were up in arms about the "life" while it was in the womb, suddenly take interest and want to see these prior children (but now young adults) be punished and go to jail. Hell, don't you think their life has been punishment enough. Are there some children who were in foster care who have incredible lives when they grow up? Yep, but it's the exception, and not the rule. Also, this is NOT to say that all crimes are committed by children/people of foster care, etc, it's just to say that some do go down this path.
"Neglected, abused, molested - they are being punished "EVERY" single day of their life because of the actions of two other people."
Indeed
Indeed
My 2 cents, what little its worth. I am strongly pro-choice. I grew up in a very liberal family. Even if I had not, I think my views would still be the same. Now, I dont like late-term abortion, BUT it's still a woman's choice regardless of my feelings.
Some women have to have late-term aborts due to newly discovered deficiencies, with baby, tumors etc. So it is not so black and white.
If I were a woman, I'd never bring this ugly, sad world we live in on a kid. They deserve better than that. Plus, based on a study I read in either Scientific Journal or CNN, the earth has a lifespan left of only 40 years at best. Wouldnt want that kid thinking to quote Johnny Rotten, "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
Some women have to have late-term aborts due to newly discovered deficiencies, with baby, tumors etc. So it is not so black and white.
If I were a woman, I'd never bring this ugly, sad world we live in on a kid. They deserve better than that. Plus, based on a study I read in either Scientific Journal or CNN, the earth has a lifespan left of only 40 years at best. Wouldnt want that kid thinking to quote Johnny Rotten, "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
Cappysweety those are some wise words indeed. I like especially the quote and you know what, standing for something is much better than appathy or indifference. Taking a side means you can start seeking truth.
For myself no one convinced me to become pro choice or pro life. I thought about the debate and came to the conclusion that pro life is the more humanistic side. However I don't like people throwing God into the argument and telling people they are going to hell. That is ignorance and has no place in this discussion.
CS:
"Personally, as far as abortion goes (Pro-life, anti-abortion, whatever the hell, its all the same thing, just different word play), I tend to believe that my body "
E11:
Pro life means you take the side of life, regardless of what side it is, and it doesn't always refer to abortions, anti abortions means you are against all abortions. Hence these words don't mean the same thing.
CS:
"Nothing else really belongs to us but our bodies -- we can all claim what we believe is ours but in reality the only thing that we own and the only thing we are entitled to is what we all use to get around everyday. Everything else is meaningless if you can't use at least some of your senses -- I know some are not born with all senses."
E11:
This is false. Our bodies belong to us because it is us and we are it. You can't really distinguish our mind from our bodies. When our body dies, our mind dies. When our mind dies our body will die. The Terry Shivo case is a perfect example.
CS:
"The body is what a person has full control over and ownership of and there it should be there choice what goes on with it."
E11:
Whoa nelly. Stop for a moment. If you lost control over your body due to illiness or because some one stronger than you, took control over your body i.e. RAPE, does your body automatically become the property of some one elses? No. Think about the Terry Shivo case.
Your body is yours because you are the sum of your parts regardless if you have control over it or not.
For myself no one convinced me to become pro choice or pro life. I thought about the debate and came to the conclusion that pro life is the more humanistic side. However I don't like people throwing God into the argument and telling people they are going to hell. That is ignorance and has no place in this discussion.
CS:
"Personally, as far as abortion goes (Pro-life, anti-abortion, whatever the hell, its all the same thing, just different word play), I tend to believe that my body "
E11:
Pro life means you take the side of life, regardless of what side it is, and it doesn't always refer to abortions, anti abortions means you are against all abortions. Hence these words don't mean the same thing.
CS:
"Nothing else really belongs to us but our bodies -- we can all claim what we believe is ours but in reality the only thing that we own and the only thing we are entitled to is what we all use to get around everyday. Everything else is meaningless if you can't use at least some of your senses -- I know some are not born with all senses."
E11:
This is false. Our bodies belong to us because it is us and we are it. You can't really distinguish our mind from our bodies. When our body dies, our mind dies. When our mind dies our body will die. The Terry Shivo case is a perfect example.
CS:
"The body is what a person has full control over and ownership of and there it should be there choice what goes on with it."
E11:
Whoa nelly. Stop for a moment. If you lost control over your body due to illiness or because some one stronger than you, took control over your body i.e. RAPE, does your body automatically become the property of some one elses? No. Think about the Terry Shivo case.
Your body is yours because you are the sum of your parts regardless if you have control over it or not.
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